I don’t believe I saw anything in this article about Trump wanting to shut down TikTok and the screaming that ensued. Now it’s probably too late. All the little numb nuts out there who can’t wait to share their latest tattoo or death defying act or whatever will be up in arms.
Meanwhile the Chinese use TikTok to advance knowledge and education. We use TikTok to highlight decadence and stupidity.
They prevented Trump from stopping TicTok as it is a tool for the CCP and those US politicians in power who are compromised by the CCP. Maria Bartiromo opened my eyes to this years ago (before Covid) and it's just accelerated. Are we already at war but not awake to it because of the censorship of the CCP and the unwillingness of the US to find and punish those responsible for the Covid lab leak?
“A previous order under the Trump administration would have required ByteDance to sell TikTok to an American company or face a ban”
“The Biden administration is negotiating a deal with TikTok that would potentially require it to change its data and governance practices, but wouldn’t require ByteDance to sell TikTok to an American firm”
The game is over, and America lost. Biden and his admin are crashing America. Both the woke and the Chinese ministries of propaganda have convinced enough Americans that all we need to do is murder Trump and all will be well. Those of us who see thru this will never have our votes counted again. The ministries of propaganda have also convinced even Bari Weiss that US elections are free and fair. Stay safe and watch Jordan Peterson videos.
In some part of China they put the rat IN the taco. I suspect that's the case here. And if old Joe doesn't dance for TikTok, they're gonna have him for lunch.
"A previous order under the Trump administration would have required ByteDance to sell TikTok to an American company or face a ban. TikTok sued the government, Trump left office, and the deal never went through."
However, that misstates what really happened. Your characterization is better. Biden team swept into office and decided ANYTHING that Trump did was evil and must be abandoned.
It’s always dangerous to underestimate the US. Not saying you’re wrong, but we like winning. China is not this all knowing power and US is hopelessly bad.
It mentions "the Trump administration" but deliberately avoids giving Trump himself credit for being years out ahead on this issue, or pointing out the judge that blocked Trump's order on dubious legal grounds.
The irony of condemning TikTok and China for undermining Western values is that at this blog one of the biggest sources of criticism has been the excesses of political correctness and the increasing prevalence of woke culture.
Around 2016 the term baizuo, which translates to "white left", started to gain currency in the Chinese blogosphere in response to the perceived trend in American politics towards increasing wokeness. In particular, Chinese commentary asserted that this was an overcorrection on the part of the American left in response to historical injustices that led to increasingly destructive public policy. The dismantling of the meritocracy and the increasing prevalence of affirmative action was especially concerning.
Belief in meritocracy is deeply entrenched in Chinese culture and is certainly part and parcel of the current political system in China. We might not agree with its inherently authoritarian nature but generally speaking CCP officials advance through increasing demonstrations of competency post Mao. There's no way that someone like Donald Trump would ever rise to the highest office in the CCP today. Chinese Americans have also been at the forefront of defending meritocracy in this country. They were at the vanguard of getting 3 San Francisco school board members recalled and the entrance exam reinstated at Lowell High School in recent months and were also the driving force behind the Students for Fair Admissions lawsuit against Harvard.
I find it ironic that there's so much anti-Chinese sentiment in the anti-woke parts of the blogosphere when the Chinese mindset is in fact deeply anti-woke. I wonder if America wouldn't actually be better off if various aspects of Chinese culture were more mainstream in this country.
All of this is of course orthogonal to the main issue of whether or not TikTok poses a serious national security threat to America. Personally I've seen little hard evidence of that.
Is there any evidence that differences in the kinds of videos that go viral on TikTok vs Douyin are the result of malicious Chinese engineering as opposed to being a reflection of the inherent interests of the Chinese and American populations? In any case setting limits on the usage of Tiktok seems like a paternalistic and authoritarian move that most Americans would be against so I’m a little surprised that you’re citing that as a virtue of the Chinese version of the app.
You're right. As a Chinese American myself, raised by Chinese immigrants in America, I've seen this firsthand. East Asian Americans have more of a culture of educational success than mainstream American culture. I was studying while other kids were playing sports and going to parties. It's just different. I discuss on my own blog a lot about Asian academic achievement.
My understanding is that China restricts their children to 40 minutes a day. Is that correct? If so, they don't seem to have the same concern about American children. In fact, the exact opposite.
The Chinese and international apps are tailored to two different domestic markets. If American law required TikTok to limit usage for people in this country, I'm sure Bytedance would comply with local law.
But clearly that would be the sort of paternalistic move that would never gain political traction here, so I'm not sure why you're blaming that on the Chinese.
Hate to break it to you and other commenters here but I’m not a member of the CCP and don’t have any personal connection to Xi Jinping. I grew up in Texas. It’s also not clear that the CCP has intimate knowledge of the inner workings of the TikTok or Douyin algorithm.
What’s been frustrating is that much of the commentary in this thread has been moralized panic coupled with vague intimations of the supposed Chinese menace with minimal substantive support of most of the claims. Basically the argument just boils down to China authoritarian, China bad.
There is vastly more to Western values than meritocracy. That is, in fact, a relatively recent addition to the pantheon of Western civilization. And claiming that the CCP is a meritocratic organization is risibly false. Hu Jintao would certainly disagree. So would Ai Fen.
None of what you said has any bearing on whether a corporation which is essentially an arm of an adversarial nation should be trusted with detailed personal and behavioral data on more than half of America's citizens.
I agree with your comment to the extent US citizens have largely undermined our own values. But that does not mean China is welcome to facilitate more of it. I also agree that the stereotypical Chinese person has a very solid work ethic (we did too at one point the WASP ethic which created the society currently being looted and plundered) and belief in rising through merit. But there the comparison ends. US citizens, at least the ones of my ilk, abhor authoritarianism because no matter the excuse or rationale therefor it is always subject to abuse. Such as limited reproduction rights. Or capitalistic oligarchy. Or disappeared journalists , doctors, and other citizens. Things are bad here at the moment but not that bad. I do not expect you to grasp the differences between my culture and yours. Freedom has to be lived. It defies accurate description.
I’m an American so not sure if my culture and your culture are all that different. I grew up in Texas. I agree that Chinese cultural values certainly aren’t identical to American ones but rather than focusing on the differences I feel like we ignore in particular the highly relevant commonality between the Chinese mindset and the anti-woke ethos that seems to be part and parcel of the Common Sense community.
I’ve been accused of being deeply biased but it’s my assertion that Chinese Americans are at the vanguard of the anti-woke movement in this country particularly with respect to crime and meritocracy. Ironically if America ever pivots back to being sane again, Chinese influence will have certainly played a disproportionate role in that.
That was my point above. We agonize over supposedly malicious Chinese influence in our way of life, but I wonder how many people realize that Chinese influence might in fact be our very salvation. It's my belief that Chinese Americans are going to be at the vanguard of dismantling the woke regime that our ruling class seems to have become in thrall to. Students for Fair Admissions vs Harvard is a case in point.
Thanks for the clarification that you are Chinese-American. As such you were sharing your insight as to Chinese culture. As is your prerogative and I really do appreciate the insight. IMO there is much to admire about the country of China and her people. Now for the but. Your reply to my comment does not offer a rebuttal to my position though which in essence is that 5000 year old culture perhaps has conditioned people to accept authoritarianism. And what this author has described is simply the newest, most advanced form of conditioning. One that the government of China protects its people from. I take that as evidence of TikTok's nefariousness. And frankly the nefariousness of the Chinese government. For what it is worth I would object to, and do object to, any government having access to that kind of data. Part of the issue is the AI and algorithms that will undoubtedly arise from the data compilations. I find the notion that an entity will know the individual better than the individual knows him or herself chilling. Who gets to say? The individual or the algorithm? If the algorithm that is the end of free will. And free will has created everything of significance or beauty up to this point. Lastly moral relevance is good. It is the basis of genuine tolerance and diversity. But like "wokeism" screams and screams for diversity, inclusion, and equity it is very intolerant of those who do not toe the party line so too moral relevance can be taken so far as to see nothing wrong with authoritarianism. My morals preclude acceptance of authoritarianism.
Funny You should take that disposition. What we have in common with China is the Chinese mindset and the anti-Woke ethos?
I'm afraid You just can't see.
Your making two different arguments here. One is about China, which You've been defending throughout. And just NOW You bring up Chinese-Americans. You won't find many here who are gonna be against the end of Affirmative Action. That good enough for You?
But these are entirely two different peoples, the Chinese and the Chinese-Americans. Mebbe not with You, because of Your perspective. But with most people it is. And, in this country, it's sometimes hard to tell between those two, and the actual members of the CCP who are here to be educated or for *whatever* reason they're here for.
All I'm saying is that before condemning an entire country of 1.4 billion people belonging to a civilization spanning 5000 years or even just condemning an organization that's been around since 1921 and which roughly 90-100 million Chinese people belong to, we should at least take note of that fact that the CCP is probably in virtual agreement with most of the anti-woke talking points that all of here deeply believe in. Doesn't that count for something? Isn't that a meaningful point of commonality even if significant differences remain?
I guess I've never bought into this us versus them mentality, but maybe that's because I'm guilty of the sin of moral relativism.
I would like to know more about this organization that started in 1921 with 90 to 100 M Chinese people in it.
However...
In any two things, no matter how similar or how different, there's gonna be differences and samenesses. Right? That's a law of nature. At the same time, it depends to an extent on how fine-grained You're looking at things. Two members of a family can be an *awful* lot alike. But by the very law of uniqueness, the couldn't be more different in a number of Ways, right?
So, yeah. There are samenesses and differences between the CCP and us in these comments. I marvel at them, and hadn't thought or known about it much.
There are distinct problems with an us vs. them mentality. Largely because it can easily lead to hatred which, in actual FACT, does as much harm to the hater as it does to the hated. Believe it or not.
At the same time, it's not totally without merit in *all* cases. Some particulars here that influence my view. The CCP has put into their latest 5-year plan that they will *dominate* the areas of computer chips, AI and (i believe) quantum computers. First time as a line-item in the plan. IOW (In Other Words), they're gonna be the worlds #1 of the future. I think everybody knows these are gonna propel the future, so that's what they're saying.
I believe there's still a great deal of paternalism and Confucusism (spelling) in China. So they'll like be a live and let live kind-a autocrat. As long as people realize their place. They said that in a recent comment. "Countries have to know their place in things." So everything will be fine, as long as the U.S. goes along with that.
It's already happening. Guy makes a comment about Hong Kong, next thing You know China's taking the NBA junk off-a the shelves. They want the guy fired. They almost got their way. Guy grovels sufficiently to keep his job, is what happened.
This is not what we here in the U.S. would call a "benevolent dictator."
Other examples about where China gives every appearance of not having the best interests in mind for Americans, or America the country.
So that's why many people take an us vs. them attitude towards China. Or mebbe they don't know about the Confucusism in China, and it's based somewhat on racial animus. Can't say that *nobody* looks at it that unfortunate way.
Meaningful point of commonality? Between us here in these comments, yeah, it would be. But it's a far bridge from the U.S. to China, the way things are going. Like I've posted before, unless something drastic happens, China is probably gonna wage an economic war against the U.S. and 1.4 B people will determine the winner, right? And the CCP isn't gonna allow any kind-a revolution to upset those plans.
The question to be answered is what will they do with the #1 economy in the world. They've already answered. They'll withdraw their markets to countries than don't bow the knee to their satisfaction. That's what they've done, and it's worked. Why change that? I wish I could be hopeful in that regard, as that's my nature. But.. no.
Moral relativism a sin? For me personally, contrary to a lotta commenters, I never believed much in sin as it's normally thought of. I believe people commit sins whenever they do something or another that is less than "optimal." However "optimal" turns out to be. Thus, people sin every day, because they're human.
But, I hafta admit, I think moral relativism and wanting to do away with the us vs. them mentality at all costs tend to go together. That's just me.
TY for reply, M. Yan Shen. Got me to thinking. But I didn't sleep well last night, and I'm wasted. Mebbe more tomorrow. Mebbe not. ;-) Have a good rest-a-day.
Break down the weaving of the cultural fabric as well as introducing/encouraging intellectual and moral weakness in a culture is an INSIDIOUS and calculated threat. That is what happens millions of times a week on TT.
A failure to distinguish between a shared culture and citizenship allows one to blur the lines. One wonders how many Chinese in the US who are free to vote for their school system along with practice their free speech, religion, etc. would be "anti-Chinese" by your definition because they are suspicious of the CCP's motives. Many times immigrants from oppressive and authoritarian countries often feel like they are the true preservers of their religious and culture customs.
Everybody here is an Other. We are not homogeneous. It is what makes it so fabulous IMO. We are like young souls from long lines of old souls. Don't ever feel
bad about it but rathef wear your uniqueness/otherness proudly.
Like I said elsewhere, You have a deeply held bias.
But like I also said elsewhere, there are things we could learn from the Chinese.
As far as meritocracies go, I'm surprised You interpreted Xi extension of a third term as in any way meritocratic. My understanding is that he consolidated his power on the Politburo (or whatever they call it). Consolidating power isn't based on meritocracy, but loyalty.
I don't think You'll get many complaints about Chinese attitudes towards meritocracy or anti-Wokeness in *these* comments. I'm afraid that doesn't necessarily make China a country that deserves Most Favorite Nation status, however.
If You'd care to offer some policies that the Chinese gubmint specifically does that promotes the best interests of the U.S., I'd like to "hear" all about them. I'm not saying there *aren't* any. Just that I don't know of them.
It was mentioned not far from the end of the article: Trump wanted to either ban TikTok in the US or force it to sell its American operations to an American owner. TikTok sued the US government. The law's current notion of "national security" is too narrow and old-fashioned to cope with this.
I've worked in IT for 30 yrs. Twenty of those years have been in the federal space.
I saw in the mid 90's what we were capable of doing with the internet, large scale data collection and storage and smart applications, and it scared the heck out of me then. Today's tech is just orders of magnitude more powerful and the thought and analysis that goes into it is just so much more sophisticated.
Video game companies use human behavioral specialists to analyze how get people's attention and make a game or app "sticky". They hire great economists to figure out how to structure in game incentives that lead people to pay more.
Social media figured out long ago how to get people emotionally committed through little hits of dopamine from "likes" (social approval) and conflict.
The system today is set up to manipulate you all the time. I can route you to places with information that I want you to see with people similar enough to you that you will desire their approval. I can feed you a string of such things that over time lead you to a place I want you to go, to accept an opinion that at the start you would not have approved of but have come to see as obviously correct and your own. Hitler used this technique with the German people to get them from indifference to Jews to agreeing with their being wiped out from Europe. He did not just come out and propose the final solution, he took time and moved in incremental steps, ramping up the rhetoric and proposals slowly, built a social narrative that pulled the larger society in its wake.
Then, if that does not work, I can use the same methods to shame you or dox you. If the carrot of social approval online does not get you where I want you to go or you pose a threat to that, then I can use the stick. I can set mobs on you online. I can publish or allow to be published information about you in the real world.
With today's tech, I can track you 24 hrs a day. I know when you go to the doctor and where just from tracking the location of your phone. I can tell when you get paid by your shopping habits and I can tell you have hemorrhoids by the fact that you were at CVS and used your discount card or credit card to purchase hemorrhoid cream.
In fact, there is so much information coming in about you all the time, location, purchasing, call data, Google searches, EzPass, signals from your car, ....there is just SO MUCH, that a properly organized corporation or government agency with enough money can not only track you all day, every day, but can know you better than you know yourself. With that, they can and DO manipulate you all the time.
Sure, Tik Tok is tied to the CCP and yes that is a major problem, but do not for one minute think that the same tech and data are not being used by either your own government or Wall Street. Pick your poison.
As someone with 30+ years in IT and 22 of those in the Federal space as well, I completely concur.
The Snowden revelations which Glen Greenwald and Laura Poitras brought to the world's attention were the wake up call which should have scared the living hell out of anyone with at least a room temperature I.Q. Instead, half the country just hit the snooze button and -- quite literally -- rolled over. You can't help but wonder if such a bomb were to drop under a Republican administration rather than one headed by a biracial messiah that the outrage would not have been greater? Thunderous even.
RE: "a properly organized corporation...with enough money can not only track you all day, every day, but can know you better than you know yourself"
Let us keep in mind that the same country that gave us TikTok also has sent all the ingredients for the chemical versions of same -- fentanyl and crystal meth -- to Mexican cartels, which have distributed those poisons all over the US, causing more than a million overdose deaths annually at the current rate.
Not to mention the Rona. Now the WEF globalists are currently assisting China in the great culling of western society with MRNA vaccines. Guess which country doesn't use the MRNA vaccine.
Recently, the military realized that soldiers wearing smart watches and using smart phones were actually broadcasting their location, movement, estimate of number, etc. All highly valuable information.
I'm surprised it took the military so long to figure that one out. Apple watches have been around for 8 years or so, and the GPS in phones longer. A buddy of mine's kid is in the Navy. Said "child" gets upset when the ship goes to general quarters and the internet is cut off. I never thought I would ever say this but, what the hell has the military and this generation come to?
A crew of 5,000 gen Z without an internet at sea...break out the scrimshaw instructions?! Seriously, admire the men and women serving their country and performing jobs that can be simultaneously very dreary, boring, and incredibly tense and nuanced. The question is are they being served by a president (whose claims about Beau's service and death skate so close to stolen valor) and military leaders who failed to stop the disastrous withdraw from Afghanistan (leaving translators and those who also served the US military in grave danger and millions of dollars of equipment and technology available to the enemy).
True. The drones the Chinese build? Almost all the ones in use by people other than the military. Younger-Sister is one, and she claims China captures whatever video is taken for their own purposes. Nothing *sinister* in these things, right?
I find it slightly amusing that we now abhor TiK Tok for committing the same data stealing/hoarding as the very platforms we've been gorging on incessantly for the past fifteen or twenty years. What, Facebook and Google haven't been doing the same things? Instagram? They have, of course. They're just American, not Chinese. But data is being sold and collected everywhere, all over the world, and who's to say that Zuckerberg in his infinite wisdom hasn't sold untold terabytes of digital info to authorities in China? Or he in turn buying from TikTok's owner ByteDance? And who's to say Facebook hasn't cooperated with the Federal Gov't? I would think they have..
There very well could be a nefarious political element here, as with so many things Chinese Communist, they're good at spying (as we are..) - but I would not be surprised if they also want to sell all that 24/7/365 info to entities willing to buy it.
Consumer data is a global marketable commodity, exponentially valuable. The one thing many people forget is that China is as capitalistic as we are - in hunt for people's minds and habits as well as the proceeds to sell what they know.
Not really. I understand how the American branches of government work. So I have some recourse. I am powerless against the CCP. Other than the power of the pocketbook. Which I employ.
I do not. Not in almost 30 years. Oddly enough my money goes further cause WM has a lot of cheap stuff that wears out really quickly and has to be replaced.
True. And shocking. I pretty much avoid all big box stores and read lots of labels. I pretty much don't do Amazon. If I can do without something that I can only find from China I do. My current big thing is dog food and treats. Made in the USA does not mean sourced in the USA. I am saving money though.
Nice. Not much to disagree with. I dunno, but I *hope* the motivations of the CCP are different from the gubmint and the SM companies. ICBW, so there's that.
I hate the fact that you are absolutely correct---we are, or at least can be, tracked and monitored digitally 24/7/365, and while some of that is voluntary, most is beyond our control.
I echo the same sentiment. All this "china has access to your DATA!" wailing as if everything is totally fine if American Megacorporation's/Security State are the only ones manipulating you with your data.
The access is the same, but the moral equivalency is not. A corporation that collects information on you in order to sell you more stuff is not nearly as evil or dangerous as another country that views us as an enemy who is trying to manipulate our views to their own ends.
Google gets you to buy useless junk for your house while the CCP gets you to feel ambivalent or worse about China's invasion of Taiwan, makes you feel like Democracy isn't really a good system, or how capitalism is corrupt and oppressive.
There is no comparison of the harm that can be done by people with the same access to data but very different motivations. It results in extremely different outcomes with massively different impacts to our lives.
Gen Z is so mis-educated they will probably never become aware of what they are doing to themselves and to their country. They are totally misinformed about their government's founding principles and do not understand that they have been indoctrinated into socialism.
I agree with you but I think we need to first look at weakened parenting. When Biden was going to take the oath of office my daughter's teacher was going to have all the students in her 5th grade class say it along with him. When I got wind of it, I sat my children down and properly educated them on the serious significance of taking oaths and showed them the oath I took at enlistment. My daughter chose to sit out the oath taking at school. And I tell my kids frequently that the government and teachers don't always get it right. Think for yourself! Parents still have influence but we need to flex that influence!
Can you explain why you believe your children reciting the oath of office for the president of the United States is a bad thing? If anything, that oath of office is the core of our culture: defend and protect the Constitution from all enemies, foreign and domestic.
To be clear, I'm not complaining about what you did---you seem a good and concerned parent to take this step. I'm just curious why you chose the president's oath of office.
Sure, thank you for asking. Because oaths are serious things. Not to be flip with with 5th graders. None of those kids were going to actually be the president (at lest not on that day). To have them say the oath like they were is disingenuous. I want my kids to think before they swear an oath to anything. To study the oath is one thing. I say it with hand raised is another, especially when it is not your oath to take. I love this country. I hope my kids do join the military like I did and help defend the constitution. But I never want them to take an unserious, disingenuous oath. Or worse, not really understand the oath they are committing to. And it was the teacher to chose the president's oath. I think she was excited Biden won.
That's an excellent reason, and thanks for sharing it: study the oath by all means, but don't take it unless it applies to you and you mean it. Oaths ARE a serious matter, as people's words should be their bonds.
Once again, DJT was right and even ahead of the curve, both on TikTok and Huawei. His efforts were thwarted by his American political opponents, not on the merits, but because they hate him. Somehow now, under a Democrat president, the concerns become legitimate. But the latest proposed method of dealing with those concerns are less burdensome to China because Biden has taken their cash in the past via the Hunter connection. All Chinese companies should be banned from doing business in the U.S. Our feckless president is incapable of acting responsibly on China because he is compromised. We need our new Republican Congress to investigate all this right to the bottom of it.
China makes a ton of our products, products that require software, both high level think Alexia and low level software think the code that actually drives the chips. Controlling the hardware is much more interesting.
We have much bigger issues than TikTok in my opinion.
You are absolutely correct. We need to boycott any product made in China. However, they make so many of our products it is almost impossible to not buy them. For example, I read an article that said the 80% of our meds are made in China. Now that is downright scary.
Nike and Apple have made strong statements supporting the bloodiest regime on Earth. Both Apple and Nike are led by fair left administrators who curse the US as a police state and praise China. Nike said, "We are of and for China." Nike hired that sum bag NFL quarter back who started the knee at the National Anthem movement.
After two members of the religion of peace shot up the break room at the male shooter's office and killed multiple people. Apple refused to cooperate with the FBI when asked for the algorithm to crack the killers' iPhone password. They said it would violate their users' privacy yet they cooperate the Chinese government in doing just that.
Remember Joe's junky son made a fortune off the Chinese and gave some to "The big guy".
We need to pressure our Den of Thieve, congress, to demand we stop trading with China.
Completely agree about not buying Chinese products, LP. But as you said, that's become impossible. Until we rebuild our factory systems--or if we do; politicians talk about bringing the work back to our shores, but they lie a lot, too--we will be stuck with China having its fingers on every pulse we have. Very sad that we deliberately sent our manufacturing and knowledge base to China to make T-shirts a buck cheaper.
Almost if not all of the security cameras are made in China. I will bet money that every one of these cameras send all of their info to China where they analyze it and probably use facial recognition to keep track of what all of us are doing. This may sound farfetched but with the use of super computers they can keep track of what all of us are doing.
I have no idea what they would use this info for but you can bet your boots they are looking for any signs of weakness.
What's ironic is that the notion that we need to decouple from China because they don't share our values is eerily similar to the wokeism embraced by left wing politicians in America.
The WSJ recently highlighted that San Francisco was considering repealing its ban on publicly funded contracts and travel to over 30 states that don't share its progressive values on issues like abortion or LGBT rights because of concerns that the policy was harming San Franciscans and also wasn't effective with respect to changing laws in other states. San Francisco Supervisor Rafael Mandelman who had voted to expand the law twice reversed course and compared it to cutting off one's nose to spite one's face.
San Francisco has tried since 2016 to decouple from much of the rest of America and it hasn't worked out as expected.
I find you analogy just a wee bit different from wanting to boycott China for slaughtering Lord knows how many people, incarcerating thousands or maybe millions more for not toeing the party line and practicing genocide.
I find the woke people moving into the same vein as the brutal Communist China. If we don't watch out we will see the left embracing Communism and putting us in the same brutality as China. Woke is just the tip of the leftist ice burg.
I don't embrace the insane woke movement and unlike you will never make up feeble excuses excusing the China's brutality. Both woke and China disgust me. The Democrat/Communists love the woke movement. I don't.
A P.S. There is a commonality in both woke and China. They are both tyrannies. So far, the left woke is just an intellectual tyranny but if the Dems have their way in a few years, it will be a physical dominance where those who oppose the tyranny of the left will be incarcerated. The first step has already taken when the Dems formed the Misinformation Board led by a moron. It was taken down but that they attempted it should be a warning to us all.
Propaganda is powerful, especially with children. Don't underestimate it.
Controlling the flow of information drove the boom of the first great Internet economy. Adding AI to that is the second generation. The Chinese government understands how critical that is. Americans don't.
I agree with you. But TikTok is not nothing. Neither is Huawei. Both are controlled by the CCP, providing data about Americans and our country to a regime that is working hard to supplant us. We also need to stop investing in China, stop the flow of IP to China, stop teaching their best students at our best universities, stop infiltration of our political leaders with bribery and blackmail. Lots to do, yes. But Biden isn't doing anything. DJT tried and was thwarted by Democrats who both hated him and were indifferent to the CCP.
Re: “stop teaching their best students at our best universities”—the universities themselves would fight you tooth and nail on that. International students are a big part of their business model as state appropriations decline and domestic enrollment patterns change. U-Illinois’s engineering school is one of the best in the country, and a few years ago, they (along with the business college) took out an insurance policy with Lloyds of London against loss of revenue if Chinese student enrollment dropped b/c Chinese students are so fundamental to their budget balance.
I don’t know, Craig. Products and services come and go. The idea of something so deadly as communism permeating through the whack job Marx seems pretty important to stop in all of its outlets.
China and all of its thuggish tactics have to be stamped out.
I didn't vote for Trump, thought he was a loudmouth and a blowhard. However, I could put that aside because many of his policies, and proposals were spot on when it came to technology and data collection.
Unfortunately too many people had Trump Derangement Syndrome and couldn't set aside their feelings and visceral reaction to anything he said, did, or proposed as policy or legislation. And we're worse off for it.
The same digital manipulation (influence) noted in this article has been strategically used on those who are predisposed to Trump Derangement Syndrome. "They" know what makes those with TDS tick. Watch it, "they" tried everything they could to get rid of Trump. Since he is still here, "they" will pivot to the manipulation of Republicans to take him out, as if "they" won't do the same thing to Desantis. "They" do not want Schedule F, decentralization of Washington DC power, secure borders, energy independence, free speech, safe streets, or a stable Middle East. These things all benefit the West and Global stability which threaten China's plan to become hegemon. "They" must keep the Democrats and the corrupt in power, at all costs.
I think most hate him. The more intelligent, or perhaps committed, fear him. He was also right when he said "they" weren't coming after him, they were coming after me and people who see things as I do.
“...Fears of Chinese manipulation of American elections has, curiously, not deterred candidates in those elections from using the app. More politicians than ever—one-third of Democratic contenders and 12 percent of Republican—are deploying TikTok to reach Gen Z voters...”
Lol gee, I wonder why a third of Democrats and a tenth of Republicans aren’t deterred by TikTok’s threat to national security? Could it be because they’re all owned by the CCP? Peter Schweizer’s “Red-Handed” is a must read for anyone interested in just compromised our political class really is.
Lenin was said to have written “When it comes time to hang the capitalists, they will vie with each other for the rope contract.” Whether or not he really did, America is being just as greedy and short-sighted in this digital age of TikTok and the rise of the Chinese authoritarian surveillance state.
Frankly, I think _all_ apps are problematic. Companies are global, no? True, TikTok may be more under the control of the Chinese government than Apple is, say, under the control of the U.S. government, but in the end, TikTok, Twitter, Facebook, WhatsApp—they're all little data plantations waiting for the right bots to harvest them.
Thing is that privacy is just not important to TikTok's main user base—GenZ and the more experimental Millennials. They essentially grew up without it. And they don't value it.
And shutting the barn door after the horses have escaped probably won't do much at this point.
"Thing is that privacy is just not important to TikTok's main user base—GenZ and the more experimental Millennials. They essentially grew up without it. And they don't value it."
This is such a crucial point—absolutely key to the challenge of preserving America's values and independence. We have dug ourselves a VERY deep hole. I hope we can actually get out of it, but it feels a little hopeless if we have to rely on younger generations who care so much less (if at all) for our fundamental principles.
Nope we won’t be able to dig ourselves out, and the Gen Z generation are digging the hole even deeper. They don’t give a sh.. about anybody in America and please don’t give me the BS about climate change because they don’t even know where planet earth is. In fact everything exist on their IPhones and Tik Tok we can’t be shocked at where we are as a nation.
"A previous order under the Trump administration would have required ByteDance to sell TikTok to an American..."
And that's the closest we come to an acknowledgement that Trump was years ahead on this, and "progressives" stopped him from protecting the country from Chinese influence, just like they stopped him from shutting down the borders to the Chinese coronavirus.
Meanwhile, there's loads of evidence that the Chinese have previously bribed our current president's family. Explicit acknowledgement from Deborah Birx that the Chinese wrote our COVID policies. They feed propaganda and mental illness to our kids, encouraging everything they outlaw back in China. This isn't coincidence, it's strategy. Weaken your enemy before you go to war, and don't begin until you have won.
Hopefully progressives start catching up to conservatives on this and other issues of national security, but given the midterms, I think America's Democrats are already prepared in their hearts to strip our rights and vote our sovereignty away. They began years ago and vote for more of the same, and there's growing relationship and similarity between the CCP and the Democratic Party. "Social justice" is fundamentally Marxism and it's now being explicitly written into everything from kindergarten curriculums to Congressional legislation.
I am a cybersecurity professional working at a well-known multinational firm -- we have been warning about TT for these reasons (and others) since 2017. This should be shared far and wide. Seriously, get off TikTok, and get your kids off, too
Could ban them from Google Play or Apple store, which effectively cuts off access to most of their users. That's what they did to Parler, despite that app being in no way a threat to national security.
Has anyone commenting on this thread actually USED TikTok... as in you actually have the app on your phone and scrolled and liked things? I generally feel that these comment sections lean toward readers that may be 50+ (correct me if I'm wrong) but as someone who turns 30 next year, yes I've used TikTok and the majority of my friends do as well.
After about 2 months of heavily using it a year ago, I had to delete it because it was easily the MOST addicting social media app I have ever experienced. One day something in me kind of shifted and I knew I needed to get rid of it.
The algorithm is unparalleled... It kind of made me feel like my IQ levels were being lowered on a daily basis and my brain didn't know how to do other daily life tasks. The biggest risk is that at surface level TikTok appears innocent. It's just "people dancing"... but as someone who has used the app it didn't take very long for them to feed me exactly what I wanted to see and to get me hooked. There's so much subliminal messaging underneath the layers of comedy and dancing.
Haven't other social media companies had ties to China before? I'd like to see a comparison to illustrate exactly why TikTok is more dangerous than Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, etc. Is it only in the way our data is stored and harvested or is it more than that?
Is banning the app entirely the way to go? I know I personally wouldn't mind it, and I sure as heck would get my kids off of it ASAP if I were you. But get rid of all the other social media giants while you're at it too.
Yes, I used it for about a year, mainly because my kid and her friends were all on it. It's an amazing app, addictive as you say, but also very well written and designed. There are some incredible talents there. I learned how to moonwalk from one of them. It's too bad that it's based in Communist China. If they were not Communist, but a democracy like Japan or Taiwan, it would be just the addictive aspects that would be objectionable, but that's a tribute to their genius, not a criticism.
Some of us are under 50 here, yes, and your experience is exactly what happened to my daughter. Thank goodness she was awake to what was happening—she took what was virtual and was making it a physical reality—scary. That experience has created a Common Sense Bari Weiss fan though, so not all bad. Ticktock is worse than other social platforms by far per my daughter’s experience.
I am naturally averse to this type of stuff and would eat s$*# and die before I became part of a hive, but you have confirmed what the "50+" commenters recognize instinctively.
I've watched compilation videos on YouTube to get the idea and they're not only incredibly addictive, they warp the mind's ability to focus. It's like a drug high for your emotions, nonstop stimulation with no effort required.
I wasn't on the computer for a period, so I've just barely glanced at SM. Glad I never got hooked.
All that to say... They're all addictive. They were designed to be. Apparently China's better at it than the U.S. I agree the solution is to get rid-a all-a them, but it'll never happen. Can dream...
In answer to Your question: The difference who holds on to the data and for what purposes. AFAIK, the U.S. companies just use it to addict You. Keep Your attention on their apps. So they can advertise junk for You to buy. (So You can run up credit card debt. But that's just a side benefit to the banks. Nothing to do with the SM companies, because I doubt if they're getting kickbacks.)
Something the article fails to address is the content of TikTok that gets the most views and goes viral. It’s mostly anti-West. Young people think that western values are uniquely terrible (cis-hetero-patriarchy, anyone?) and are ignorant about atrocities ongoing in other countries. Not my original thought - something I learned from Douglas Murray.
I'm deeply skeptical that the TikTok videos that get the most views are the ones that are anti-Western. I'd imagine that the most viewed videos on TikTok are of people dancing or doing other fun and silly things rather than videos that are political in nature. Do you or Douglas Murray have any data to support the claim that political videos that are explicitly anti-Western are the ones drawing the majority of the views on TikTok?
Yeah, my comment was a bit vague. The most viral videos are of course the light stuff like dancing and cooking but the overall political trends on Tiktok seem to be things that tear down Western values. I have no data as I’m just an observer, but Douglas Murray is a great and well-researched author whose book The War on The West brought this to my attention so if you’re interested in data, I’d look there.
Why is the onus on Douglas Murray or Serena to provide evidence of Chinese wrongdoing? The aggressive CCP does not hide from the fact they seek to incorporate their vision for the 21st Century, with them in charge.
Authoritarian is bad whether in the US or China. But is there debate that China currently has an authoritarian government? Personally I think the US is well on the way but there is vigorous debate about that.
In 1981, Michael Crichton’s movie, Looker, was released. 41 years ago. The premise is that a company, Looker Labs, had developed technology to tailor what people saw on television to their individual brain activity. James Coburn plays a cameo, but critical part as John Reston, CEO of Looker Labs. He is addressing a meeting of his Board of Directors. Here’s his speech—and bear in mind that this is over 40 years ago:
John Reston: Television can control public opinion more effectively than armies of secret police, because television is entirely voluntary. The American government forces our children to attend school, but nobody forces them to watch T.V. Americans of all ages *submit* to television. Television is the American ideal. Persuasion without coercion. Nobody makes us watch. Who could have predicted that a *free* people would voluntarily spend one fifth of their lives sitting in front of a *box* with pictures? Fifteen years sitting in prison is punishment. But 15 years sitting in front of a television set is entertainment. And the average American now spends more than one and a half years of his life just watching television commercials. Fifty minutes, every day of his life, watching commercials. Now, that's power.
This amazes me, too. We're on this earth for a mere speck of time in the grand scheme of things and there is so much to see and do, why waste it watching television? Or Tik Tok? Or endlessly surfing the web. Sure, a few programs can be fun after a long day, but when I see people retire and then spend the next 30 years sitting in a chair watching TV it makes me sad.
I don't know any retired people, so You may be right. But going by what I do, You should be more worried about all the people of *all* ages who use social media of *any* kind (other than Substacks).
I have to maintain a social media presence for work, i.e. I post stuff on Twitter and Facebook for business, but don't use either one personally and have avoided Tik Tok also (though I did get sucked into watching Vine for the brief time it existed)
“Exhibit A: the Senate race in Pennsylvania, in which both Democrat John Fetterman and his Republican rival, Mehmet Oz, deployed TikTok, with Oz railing against the cost of vegetables in one video, and Fetterman slamming Oz for saying “crudité” in a highly effective response”
——————————————————
Imagine running an ad about the price of groceries when your opponent is a lumbering, impaired, skinhead, ogre who CHASED A BLACK GUY DOWN THE STREET WITH A SHOTGUN.
Now that's funny. Name one "centrist Democrat" (and don't say Joe Manchin).
Sorry but if you vote for the garbage pushed by Pelosi, Schumer and the Squad, you are no "centrist." Because no matter how "moderate" they claim to be, their entire party has been captured by leftist cant and they all vote in lockstep.
Just like the leftist apparatchiks they are.
So no surprise they'd embrace tik-tok. After all, the head of their party took Chinese Communist cash. Who else would be "the Big Guy?"
China is already using data on their citizens in the US to control their behavior. When they find a political statement contrary to CCP doctrine they threaten punishment of their relatives back in China, loss of financial support, or bullying by Chinese agents in the US.
I am not quite sure how this would work with Americans. Perhaps they would dox Americans who speak out about Chinese atrocities. Maybe their agents would engineer 'accidents' for the most serious offenses. It is troubling.
"Accidents" engineered by a foreign State against private citizens inside the USA would be acts of war. More broadly, missing from the entire article is any description whatsoever of the types of crimes China might commit against Gen-Z through its massive collection of data.
I don't think it'd be hard to figure out. Take what Twitter and them all do. Magnify that by infinity, and turn it over to a government that wants world dominance? What could possibly go wrong.
I noticed that, too. I was hoping for concrete examples to really clarify the scope of the threat. I think most Americans—especially Gen Z—associate tech with convenience and entertainment and don't have enough basic knowledge of how data is used to have the imagination for how it might harm. People who DO know this stuff need to speak to that lack—they need to fill in the blanks so that people can really see and understand the threat.
I agree there are many people who are entrenched/invested in their habitual ways of thinking and being and are not open to new information. But that doesn't argue against planting seeds of knowledge and perspective. The only way people can wake up is if they have ideas or experiences that offer a contrasting view. And humans are capable of having their eyes opened, otherwise no one could ever change and grow.
I don’t believe I saw anything in this article about Trump wanting to shut down TikTok and the screaming that ensued. Now it’s probably too late. All the little numb nuts out there who can’t wait to share their latest tattoo or death defying act or whatever will be up in arms.
Meanwhile the Chinese use TikTok to advance knowledge and education. We use TikTok to highlight decadence and stupidity.
They prevented Trump from stopping TicTok as it is a tool for the CCP and those US politicians in power who are compromised by the CCP. Maria Bartiromo opened my eyes to this years ago (before Covid) and it's just accelerated. Are we already at war but not awake to it because of the censorship of the CCP and the unwillingness of the US to find and punish those responsible for the Covid lab leak?
“A previous order under the Trump administration would have required ByteDance to sell TikTok to an American company or face a ban”
“The Biden administration is negotiating a deal with TikTok that would potentially require it to change its data and governance practices, but wouldn’t require ByteDance to sell TikTok to an American firm”
Is old Joe just stupid or in the tank? or both?
Biden is the Big Guy. He took ChiCom cash.
The game is over, and America lost. Biden and his admin are crashing America. Both the woke and the Chinese ministries of propaganda have convinced enough Americans that all we need to do is murder Trump and all will be well. Those of us who see thru this will never have our votes counted again. The ministries of propaganda have also convinced even Bari Weiss that US elections are free and fair. Stay safe and watch Jordan Peterson videos.
Smart money says 'The Big Guy' is on the TikTok gravy train like a rat on a taco.
In some part of China they put the rat IN the taco. I suspect that's the case here. And if old Joe doesn't dance for TikTok, they're gonna have him for lunch.
The left screeches at the name Trump.
It certainly is a threat.
"A previous order under the Trump administration would have required ByteDance to sell TikTok to an American company or face a ban. TikTok sued the government, Trump left office, and the deal never went through."
However, that misstates what really happened. Your characterization is better. Biden team swept into office and decided ANYTHING that Trump did was evil and must be abandoned.
China is playing chess, the US is playing checkers.
It’s always dangerous to underestimate the US. Not saying you’re wrong, but we like winning. China is not this all knowing power and US is hopelessly bad.
That’s naive thinking imo.
I agree but we have a President with diminished capacity and his family with diminished patriotism.
Not just one.
His party with diminished patriotism.
Which administration are we talking about here, winning in the last two years has clearly not been about Americans in my honest opinion
Skinny,
I’m Not talking about a single administration.
US is a complex, powerful entity.
I’m not saying I agree or disagree, but the fact is the USA is far more than a few politicians. Power can’t be underestimated imo.
Naive thinking is indeed the problem. IMO.
John Fetterman is proof of that
And the US is missing a few chips.
I saw what you did there. Well played!
And nodding off during the game
I think Newt mentioned, they play the game “Go”
Here’s one for you.
The US Navy prohibits sailors from using Bluetooth during underways and deployments because of the risk of foreign surveillance.
The US Navy has no problem with those same sailors using TikTok.
Either extreme ignorance or inexcusable laxity.
Especially considering that Bluetooth connection is actually a very secure form of wireless connection.
Democrats now recognize TikTok as a powerful force in their election campaigns. That's a huge incentive for them to keep it.
True.
I imagine TT would be a powerful election tool for both parties, yes?
CCP vastly prefers the DNC, they've paid for the upper echelons of the DNC for years. Why would TikTok be helpful to the GOP?
I think the point of the article is it is not good for anyone.
The article does mention Trump in the last paragraphs.
It mentions "the Trump administration" but deliberately avoids giving Trump himself credit for being years out ahead on this issue, or pointing out the judge that blocked Trump's order on dubious legal grounds.
I stand corrected. But by then I lost interest. And it appeared very offhand.
LAST paragraph lol
LAST paragraph LOL
Back in the 90s, MTV videoed guys doing stunts that mostly had to do with endangering their private parts. The show was called, "Jackass."
The irony of condemning TikTok and China for undermining Western values is that at this blog one of the biggest sources of criticism has been the excesses of political correctness and the increasing prevalence of woke culture.
Around 2016 the term baizuo, which translates to "white left", started to gain currency in the Chinese blogosphere in response to the perceived trend in American politics towards increasing wokeness. In particular, Chinese commentary asserted that this was an overcorrection on the part of the American left in response to historical injustices that led to increasingly destructive public policy. The dismantling of the meritocracy and the increasing prevalence of affirmative action was especially concerning.
Belief in meritocracy is deeply entrenched in Chinese culture and is certainly part and parcel of the current political system in China. We might not agree with its inherently authoritarian nature but generally speaking CCP officials advance through increasing demonstrations of competency post Mao. There's no way that someone like Donald Trump would ever rise to the highest office in the CCP today. Chinese Americans have also been at the forefront of defending meritocracy in this country. They were at the vanguard of getting 3 San Francisco school board members recalled and the entrance exam reinstated at Lowell High School in recent months and were also the driving force behind the Students for Fair Admissions lawsuit against Harvard.
I find it ironic that there's so much anti-Chinese sentiment in the anti-woke parts of the blogosphere when the Chinese mindset is in fact deeply anti-woke. I wonder if America wouldn't actually be better off if various aspects of Chinese culture were more mainstream in this country.
All of this is of course orthogonal to the main issue of whether or not TikTok poses a serious national security threat to America. Personally I've seen little hard evidence of that.
No doubt Xi approved commentary.
However, the proof is how China allows their children to use TikTok v how they want Americans to use it. Betterment v degradation.
Is there any evidence that differences in the kinds of videos that go viral on TikTok vs Douyin are the result of malicious Chinese engineering as opposed to being a reflection of the inherent interests of the Chinese and American populations? In any case setting limits on the usage of Tiktok seems like a paternalistic and authoritarian move that most Americans would be against so I’m a little surprised that you’re citing that as a virtue of the Chinese version of the app.
You're right. As a Chinese American myself, raised by Chinese immigrants in America, I've seen this firsthand. East Asian Americans have more of a culture of educational success than mainstream American culture. I was studying while other kids were playing sports and going to parties. It's just different. I discuss on my own blog a lot about Asian academic achievement.
My understanding is that China restricts their children to 40 minutes a day. Is that correct? If so, they don't seem to have the same concern about American children. In fact, the exact opposite.
You think that's coincidence?
The Chinese and international apps are tailored to two different domestic markets. If American law required TikTok to limit usage for people in this country, I'm sure Bytedance would comply with local law.
But clearly that would be the sort of paternalistic move that would never gain political traction here, so I'm not sure why you're blaming that on the Chinese.
Just pointing out that what's good for the goose is NOT good for the gander.
I’m Sure you can ask Xi that.
Hate to break it to you and other commenters here but I’m not a member of the CCP and don’t have any personal connection to Xi Jinping. I grew up in Texas. It’s also not clear that the CCP has intimate knowledge of the inner workings of the TikTok or Douyin algorithm.
What’s been frustrating is that much of the commentary in this thread has been moralized panic coupled with vague intimations of the supposed Chinese menace with minimal substantive support of most of the claims. Basically the argument just boils down to China authoritarian, China bad.
You ignored my mention of Confucius Institutes. Why was that?
There is vastly more to Western values than meritocracy. That is, in fact, a relatively recent addition to the pantheon of Western civilization. And claiming that the CCP is a meritocratic organization is risibly false. Hu Jintao would certainly disagree. So would Ai Fen.
None of what you said has any bearing on whether a corporation which is essentially an arm of an adversarial nation should be trusted with detailed personal and behavioral data on more than half of America's citizens.
I agree with your comment to the extent US citizens have largely undermined our own values. But that does not mean China is welcome to facilitate more of it. I also agree that the stereotypical Chinese person has a very solid work ethic (we did too at one point the WASP ethic which created the society currently being looted and plundered) and belief in rising through merit. But there the comparison ends. US citizens, at least the ones of my ilk, abhor authoritarianism because no matter the excuse or rationale therefor it is always subject to abuse. Such as limited reproduction rights. Or capitalistic oligarchy. Or disappeared journalists , doctors, and other citizens. Things are bad here at the moment but not that bad. I do not expect you to grasp the differences between my culture and yours. Freedom has to be lived. It defies accurate description.
I’m an American so not sure if my culture and your culture are all that different. I grew up in Texas. I agree that Chinese cultural values certainly aren’t identical to American ones but rather than focusing on the differences I feel like we ignore in particular the highly relevant commonality between the Chinese mindset and the anti-woke ethos that seems to be part and parcel of the Common Sense community.
I’ve been accused of being deeply biased but it’s my assertion that Chinese Americans are at the vanguard of the anti-woke movement in this country particularly with respect to crime and meritocracy. Ironically if America ever pivots back to being sane again, Chinese influence will have certainly played a disproportionate role in that.
That was my point above. We agonize over supposedly malicious Chinese influence in our way of life, but I wonder how many people realize that Chinese influence might in fact be our very salvation. It's my belief that Chinese Americans are going to be at the vanguard of dismantling the woke regime that our ruling class seems to have become in thrall to. Students for Fair Admissions vs Harvard is a case in point.
Thanks for the clarification that you are Chinese-American. As such you were sharing your insight as to Chinese culture. As is your prerogative and I really do appreciate the insight. IMO there is much to admire about the country of China and her people. Now for the but. Your reply to my comment does not offer a rebuttal to my position though which in essence is that 5000 year old culture perhaps has conditioned people to accept authoritarianism. And what this author has described is simply the newest, most advanced form of conditioning. One that the government of China protects its people from. I take that as evidence of TikTok's nefariousness. And frankly the nefariousness of the Chinese government. For what it is worth I would object to, and do object to, any government having access to that kind of data. Part of the issue is the AI and algorithms that will undoubtedly arise from the data compilations. I find the notion that an entity will know the individual better than the individual knows him or herself chilling. Who gets to say? The individual or the algorithm? If the algorithm that is the end of free will. And free will has created everything of significance or beauty up to this point. Lastly moral relevance is good. It is the basis of genuine tolerance and diversity. But like "wokeism" screams and screams for diversity, inclusion, and equity it is very intolerant of those who do not toe the party line so too moral relevance can be taken so far as to see nothing wrong with authoritarianism. My morals preclude acceptance of authoritarianism.
Good points, *all.*
Funny You should take that disposition. What we have in common with China is the Chinese mindset and the anti-Woke ethos?
I'm afraid You just can't see.
Your making two different arguments here. One is about China, which You've been defending throughout. And just NOW You bring up Chinese-Americans. You won't find many here who are gonna be against the end of Affirmative Action. That good enough for You?
But these are entirely two different peoples, the Chinese and the Chinese-Americans. Mebbe not with You, because of Your perspective. But with most people it is. And, in this country, it's sometimes hard to tell between those two, and the actual members of the CCP who are here to be educated or for *whatever* reason they're here for.
All I'm saying is that before condemning an entire country of 1.4 billion people belonging to a civilization spanning 5000 years or even just condemning an organization that's been around since 1921 and which roughly 90-100 million Chinese people belong to, we should at least take note of that fact that the CCP is probably in virtual agreement with most of the anti-woke talking points that all of here deeply believe in. Doesn't that count for something? Isn't that a meaningful point of commonality even if significant differences remain?
I guess I've never bought into this us versus them mentality, but maybe that's because I'm guilty of the sin of moral relativism.
I would like to know more about this organization that started in 1921 with 90 to 100 M Chinese people in it.
However...
In any two things, no matter how similar or how different, there's gonna be differences and samenesses. Right? That's a law of nature. At the same time, it depends to an extent on how fine-grained You're looking at things. Two members of a family can be an *awful* lot alike. But by the very law of uniqueness, the couldn't be more different in a number of Ways, right?
So, yeah. There are samenesses and differences between the CCP and us in these comments. I marvel at them, and hadn't thought or known about it much.
There are distinct problems with an us vs. them mentality. Largely because it can easily lead to hatred which, in actual FACT, does as much harm to the hater as it does to the hated. Believe it or not.
At the same time, it's not totally without merit in *all* cases. Some particulars here that influence my view. The CCP has put into their latest 5-year plan that they will *dominate* the areas of computer chips, AI and (i believe) quantum computers. First time as a line-item in the plan. IOW (In Other Words), they're gonna be the worlds #1 of the future. I think everybody knows these are gonna propel the future, so that's what they're saying.
I believe there's still a great deal of paternalism and Confucusism (spelling) in China. So they'll like be a live and let live kind-a autocrat. As long as people realize their place. They said that in a recent comment. "Countries have to know their place in things." So everything will be fine, as long as the U.S. goes along with that.
It's already happening. Guy makes a comment about Hong Kong, next thing You know China's taking the NBA junk off-a the shelves. They want the guy fired. They almost got their way. Guy grovels sufficiently to keep his job, is what happened.
This is not what we here in the U.S. would call a "benevolent dictator."
Other examples about where China gives every appearance of not having the best interests in mind for Americans, or America the country.
So that's why many people take an us vs. them attitude towards China. Or mebbe they don't know about the Confucusism in China, and it's based somewhat on racial animus. Can't say that *nobody* looks at it that unfortunate way.
Meaningful point of commonality? Between us here in these comments, yeah, it would be. But it's a far bridge from the U.S. to China, the way things are going. Like I've posted before, unless something drastic happens, China is probably gonna wage an economic war against the U.S. and 1.4 B people will determine the winner, right? And the CCP isn't gonna allow any kind-a revolution to upset those plans.
The question to be answered is what will they do with the #1 economy in the world. They've already answered. They'll withdraw their markets to countries than don't bow the knee to their satisfaction. That's what they've done, and it's worked. Why change that? I wish I could be hopeful in that regard, as that's my nature. But.. no.
Moral relativism a sin? For me personally, contrary to a lotta commenters, I never believed much in sin as it's normally thought of. I believe people commit sins whenever they do something or another that is less than "optimal." However "optimal" turns out to be. Thus, people sin every day, because they're human.
But, I hafta admit, I think moral relativism and wanting to do away with the us vs. them mentality at all costs tend to go together. That's just me.
TY for reply, M. Yan Shen. Got me to thinking. But I didn't sleep well last night, and I'm wasted. Mebbe more tomorrow. Mebbe not. ;-) Have a good rest-a-day.
Break down the weaving of the cultural fabric as well as introducing/encouraging intellectual and moral weakness in a culture is an INSIDIOUS and calculated threat. That is what happens millions of times a week on TT.
A failure to distinguish between a shared culture and citizenship allows one to blur the lines. One wonders how many Chinese in the US who are free to vote for their school system along with practice their free speech, religion, etc. would be "anti-Chinese" by your definition because they are suspicious of the CCP's motives. Many times immigrants from oppressive and authoritarian countries often feel like they are the true preservers of their religious and culture customs.
Good point.
Antiauthoritarian > antiwoke.
You are an excellent wolf warrior! When the westerners are crushed beneath your heels you will surely be rewarded!
I'm actually an American and a human being just like you, despite various commenters attempting to portray me as an Other.
Everybody here is an Other. We are not homogeneous. It is what makes it so fabulous IMO. We are like young souls from long lines of old souls. Don't ever feel
bad about it but rathef wear your uniqueness/otherness proudly.
Like I said elsewhere, You have a deeply held bias.
But like I also said elsewhere, there are things we could learn from the Chinese.
As far as meritocracies go, I'm surprised You interpreted Xi extension of a third term as in any way meritocratic. My understanding is that he consolidated his power on the Politburo (or whatever they call it). Consolidating power isn't based on meritocracy, but loyalty.
I don't think You'll get many complaints about Chinese attitudes towards meritocracy or anti-Wokeness in *these* comments. I'm afraid that doesn't necessarily make China a country that deserves Most Favorite Nation status, however.
If You'd care to offer some policies that the Chinese gubmint specifically does that promotes the best interests of the U.S., I'd like to "hear" all about them. I'm not saying there *aren't* any. Just that I don't know of them.
Unsubscribe to TicToc
What I tell anyone who asks me.
Okay.
It was mentioned not far from the end of the article: Trump wanted to either ban TikTok in the US or force it to sell its American operations to an American owner. TikTok sued the US government. The law's current notion of "national security" is too narrow and old-fashioned to cope with this.
I've worked in IT for 30 yrs. Twenty of those years have been in the federal space.
I saw in the mid 90's what we were capable of doing with the internet, large scale data collection and storage and smart applications, and it scared the heck out of me then. Today's tech is just orders of magnitude more powerful and the thought and analysis that goes into it is just so much more sophisticated.
Video game companies use human behavioral specialists to analyze how get people's attention and make a game or app "sticky". They hire great economists to figure out how to structure in game incentives that lead people to pay more.
Social media figured out long ago how to get people emotionally committed through little hits of dopamine from "likes" (social approval) and conflict.
The system today is set up to manipulate you all the time. I can route you to places with information that I want you to see with people similar enough to you that you will desire their approval. I can feed you a string of such things that over time lead you to a place I want you to go, to accept an opinion that at the start you would not have approved of but have come to see as obviously correct and your own. Hitler used this technique with the German people to get them from indifference to Jews to agreeing with their being wiped out from Europe. He did not just come out and propose the final solution, he took time and moved in incremental steps, ramping up the rhetoric and proposals slowly, built a social narrative that pulled the larger society in its wake.
Then, if that does not work, I can use the same methods to shame you or dox you. If the carrot of social approval online does not get you where I want you to go or you pose a threat to that, then I can use the stick. I can set mobs on you online. I can publish or allow to be published information about you in the real world.
With today's tech, I can track you 24 hrs a day. I know when you go to the doctor and where just from tracking the location of your phone. I can tell when you get paid by your shopping habits and I can tell you have hemorrhoids by the fact that you were at CVS and used your discount card or credit card to purchase hemorrhoid cream.
In fact, there is so much information coming in about you all the time, location, purchasing, call data, Google searches, EzPass, signals from your car, ....there is just SO MUCH, that a properly organized corporation or government agency with enough money can not only track you all day, every day, but can know you better than you know yourself. With that, they can and DO manipulate you all the time.
Sure, Tik Tok is tied to the CCP and yes that is a major problem, but do not for one minute think that the same tech and data are not being used by either your own government or Wall Street. Pick your poison.
As someone with 30+ years in IT and 22 of those in the Federal space as well, I completely concur.
The Snowden revelations which Glen Greenwald and Laura Poitras brought to the world's attention were the wake up call which should have scared the living hell out of anyone with at least a room temperature I.Q. Instead, half the country just hit the snooze button and -- quite literally -- rolled over. You can't help but wonder if such a bomb were to drop under a Republican administration rather than one headed by a biracial messiah that the outrage would not have been greater? Thunderous even.
RE: "a properly organized corporation...with enough money can not only track you all day, every day, but can know you better than you know yourself"
I believe they refer to themselves as Google.
I bought Faraday bags.
All true.
Let us keep in mind that the same country that gave us TikTok also has sent all the ingredients for the chemical versions of same -- fentanyl and crystal meth -- to Mexican cartels, which have distributed those poisons all over the US, causing more than a million overdose deaths annually at the current rate.
They also killed around 50 million of their own people during the Great Leap Forward.
Have you noticed the similarities between the GLF and the trans/woke nonsense flooding schools?
And the democrats will not stop the assault on the border---take a bow democrats
Not to mention the Rona. Now the WEF globalists are currently assisting China in the great culling of western society with MRNA vaccines. Guess which country doesn't use the MRNA vaccine.
We are at war.
Recently, the military realized that soldiers wearing smart watches and using smart phones were actually broadcasting their location, movement, estimate of number, etc. All highly valuable information.
I'm surprised it took the military so long to figure that one out. Apple watches have been around for 8 years or so, and the GPS in phones longer. A buddy of mine's kid is in the Navy. Said "child" gets upset when the ship goes to general quarters and the internet is cut off. I never thought I would ever say this but, what the hell has the military and this generation come to?
A crew of 5,000 gen Z without an internet at sea...break out the scrimshaw instructions?! Seriously, admire the men and women serving their country and performing jobs that can be simultaneously very dreary, boring, and incredibly tense and nuanced. The question is are they being served by a president (whose claims about Beau's service and death skate so close to stolen valor) and military leaders who failed to stop the disastrous withdraw from Afghanistan (leaving translators and those who also served the US military in grave danger and millions of dollars of equipment and technology available to the enemy).
True. The drones the Chinese build? Almost all the ones in use by people other than the military. Younger-Sister is one, and she claims China captures whatever video is taken for their own purposes. Nothing *sinister* in these things, right?
"Nothing to see here, break it up, move along ..."
Yes, such a travesty and “thanks” goes to the democrats for trying to destroy our democracy, but the Calvary is coming 2024
Spot on.
Agreed, Wrung Out.. A good and informative post.
I find it slightly amusing that we now abhor TiK Tok for committing the same data stealing/hoarding as the very platforms we've been gorging on incessantly for the past fifteen or twenty years. What, Facebook and Google haven't been doing the same things? Instagram? They have, of course. They're just American, not Chinese. But data is being sold and collected everywhere, all over the world, and who's to say that Zuckerberg in his infinite wisdom hasn't sold untold terabytes of digital info to authorities in China? Or he in turn buying from TikTok's owner ByteDance? And who's to say Facebook hasn't cooperated with the Federal Gov't? I would think they have..
There very well could be a nefarious political element here, as with so many things Chinese Communist, they're good at spying (as we are..) - but I would not be surprised if they also want to sell all that 24/7/365 info to entities willing to buy it.
Consumer data is a global marketable commodity, exponentially valuable. The one thing many people forget is that China is as capitalistic as we are - in hunt for people's minds and habits as well as the proceeds to sell what they know.
Just like us.
Not really. I understand how the American branches of government work. So I have some recourse. I am powerless against the CCP. Other than the power of the pocketbook. Which I employ.
I guess you don't shop at Walmart then..
I do not. Not in almost 30 years. Oddly enough my money goes further cause WM has a lot of cheap stuff that wears out really quickly and has to be replaced.
Try a company called American Giant. American made from start to finish. It isn't cheap but it is made to last.
Thanks. I will check it out. I do not want to overpay but you get what you pay for.
Or anywhere, really. It’s shocking, the percentage of our goods are made there, with every industrial secret cc’d to the CCP.
True. And shocking. I pretty much avoid all big box stores and read lots of labels. I pretty much don't do Amazon. If I can do without something that I can only find from China I do. My current big thing is dog food and treats. Made in the USA does not mean sourced in the USA. I am saving money though.
Nice. Not much to disagree with. I dunno, but I *hope* the motivations of the CCP are different from the gubmint and the SM companies. ICBW, so there's that.
Probably the same: control. Different reason to control, but control for its own sake.
Wow what a brilliant post and simply terrifying at the same
I hate the fact that you are absolutely correct---we are, or at least can be, tracked and monitored digitally 24/7/365, and while some of that is voluntary, most is beyond our control.
I echo the same sentiment. All this "china has access to your DATA!" wailing as if everything is totally fine if American Megacorporation's/Security State are the only ones manipulating you with your data.
The access is the same, but the moral equivalency is not. A corporation that collects information on you in order to sell you more stuff is not nearly as evil or dangerous as another country that views us as an enemy who is trying to manipulate our views to their own ends.
Google gets you to buy useless junk for your house while the CCP gets you to feel ambivalent or worse about China's invasion of Taiwan, makes you feel like Democracy isn't really a good system, or how capitalism is corrupt and oppressive.
There is no comparison of the harm that can be done by people with the same access to data but very different motivations. It results in extremely different outcomes with massively different impacts to our lives.
It is not fine. Nor is it the same thing. I can seek redress from my government. I cannot from the CCP.
Gen Z is so mis-educated they will probably never become aware of what they are doing to themselves and to their country. They are totally misinformed about their government's founding principles and do not understand that they have been indoctrinated into socialism.
I agree with you but I think we need to first look at weakened parenting. When Biden was going to take the oath of office my daughter's teacher was going to have all the students in her 5th grade class say it along with him. When I got wind of it, I sat my children down and properly educated them on the serious significance of taking oaths and showed them the oath I took at enlistment. My daughter chose to sit out the oath taking at school. And I tell my kids frequently that the government and teachers don't always get it right. Think for yourself! Parents still have influence but we need to flex that influence!
Can you explain why you believe your children reciting the oath of office for the president of the United States is a bad thing? If anything, that oath of office is the core of our culture: defend and protect the Constitution from all enemies, foreign and domestic.
To be clear, I'm not complaining about what you did---you seem a good and concerned parent to take this step. I'm just curious why you chose the president's oath of office.
Sure, thank you for asking. Because oaths are serious things. Not to be flip with with 5th graders. None of those kids were going to actually be the president (at lest not on that day). To have them say the oath like they were is disingenuous. I want my kids to think before they swear an oath to anything. To study the oath is one thing. I say it with hand raised is another, especially when it is not your oath to take. I love this country. I hope my kids do join the military like I did and help defend the constitution. But I never want them to take an unserious, disingenuous oath. Or worse, not really understand the oath they are committing to. And it was the teacher to chose the president's oath. I think she was excited Biden won.
That's an excellent reason, and thanks for sharing it: study the oath by all means, but don't take it unless it applies to you and you mean it. Oaths ARE a serious matter, as people's words should be their bonds.
What a truly marvelous parent you are, raising great American kids enjoy them!!
you are too kind. doing my best like many others. we are planting seeds and hoping some grow :)
Please God what ever your garden grows may it provide an abundance fir you and your family take care
Good for you. But I fear you are rare.
If Red Dawn ever came true, these idiots would probably post on TikTok and be wiped out immediately.
It is coming true just a more nuanced invasion.
That is why dope is both a noun and a verb.
Once again, DJT was right and even ahead of the curve, both on TikTok and Huawei. His efforts were thwarted by his American political opponents, not on the merits, but because they hate him. Somehow now, under a Democrat president, the concerns become legitimate. But the latest proposed method of dealing with those concerns are less burdensome to China because Biden has taken their cash in the past via the Hunter connection. All Chinese companies should be banned from doing business in the U.S. Our feckless president is incapable of acting responsibly on China because he is compromised. We need our new Republican Congress to investigate all this right to the bottom of it.
China makes a ton of our products, products that require software, both high level think Alexia and low level software think the code that actually drives the chips. Controlling the hardware is much more interesting.
We have much bigger issues than TikTok in my opinion.
You are absolutely correct. We need to boycott any product made in China. However, they make so many of our products it is almost impossible to not buy them. For example, I read an article that said the 80% of our meds are made in China. Now that is downright scary.
Nike and Apple have made strong statements supporting the bloodiest regime on Earth. Both Apple and Nike are led by fair left administrators who curse the US as a police state and praise China. Nike said, "We are of and for China." Nike hired that sum bag NFL quarter back who started the knee at the National Anthem movement.
After two members of the religion of peace shot up the break room at the male shooter's office and killed multiple people. Apple refused to cooperate with the FBI when asked for the algorithm to crack the killers' iPhone password. They said it would violate their users' privacy yet they cooperate the Chinese government in doing just that.
Remember Joe's junky son made a fortune off the Chinese and gave some to "The big guy".
We need to pressure our Den of Thieve, congress, to demand we stop trading with China.
Completely agree about not buying Chinese products, LP. But as you said, that's become impossible. Until we rebuild our factory systems--or if we do; politicians talk about bringing the work back to our shores, but they lie a lot, too--we will be stuck with China having its fingers on every pulse we have. Very sad that we deliberately sent our manufacturing and knowledge base to China to make T-shirts a buck cheaper.
I think of it as the Shark Tankification of America.
Great way of describing it, Lynne!
Almost if not all of the security cameras are made in China. I will bet money that every one of these cameras send all of their info to China where they analyze it and probably use facial recognition to keep track of what all of us are doing. This may sound farfetched but with the use of super computers they can keep track of what all of us are doing.
I have no idea what they would use this info for but you can bet your boots they are looking for any signs of weakness.
What's ironic is that the notion that we need to decouple from China because they don't share our values is eerily similar to the wokeism embraced by left wing politicians in America.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/san-francisco-reconsiders-business-ban-that-targets-states-social-values-11666789223
The WSJ recently highlighted that San Francisco was considering repealing its ban on publicly funded contracts and travel to over 30 states that don't share its progressive values on issues like abortion or LGBT rights because of concerns that the policy was harming San Franciscans and also wasn't effective with respect to changing laws in other states. San Francisco Supervisor Rafael Mandelman who had voted to expand the law twice reversed course and compared it to cutting off one's nose to spite one's face.
San Francisco has tried since 2016 to decouple from much of the rest of America and it hasn't worked out as expected.
I find you analogy just a wee bit different from wanting to boycott China for slaughtering Lord knows how many people, incarcerating thousands or maybe millions more for not toeing the party line and practicing genocide.
I find the woke people moving into the same vein as the brutal Communist China. If we don't watch out we will see the left embracing Communism and putting us in the same brutality as China. Woke is just the tip of the leftist ice burg.
I don't embrace the insane woke movement and unlike you will never make up feeble excuses excusing the China's brutality. Both woke and China disgust me. The Democrat/Communists love the woke movement. I don't.
A P.S. There is a commonality in both woke and China. They are both tyrannies. So far, the left woke is just an intellectual tyranny but if the Dems have their way in a few years, it will be a physical dominance where those who oppose the tyranny of the left will be incarcerated. The first step has already taken when the Dems formed the Misinformation Board led by a moron. It was taken down but that they attempted it should be a warning to us all.
So, your woke analogy doesn't hold water.
Propaganda is powerful, especially with children. Don't underestimate it.
Controlling the flow of information drove the boom of the first great Internet economy. Adding AI to that is the second generation. The Chinese government understands how critical that is. Americans don't.
I agree with you. But TikTok is not nothing. Neither is Huawei. Both are controlled by the CCP, providing data about Americans and our country to a regime that is working hard to supplant us. We also need to stop investing in China, stop the flow of IP to China, stop teaching their best students at our best universities, stop infiltration of our political leaders with bribery and blackmail. Lots to do, yes. But Biden isn't doing anything. DJT tried and was thwarted by Democrats who both hated him and were indifferent to the CCP.
I agree.
Re: “stop teaching their best students at our best universities”—the universities themselves would fight you tooth and nail on that. International students are a big part of their business model as state appropriations decline and domestic enrollment patterns change. U-Illinois’s engineering school is one of the best in the country, and a few years ago, they (along with the business college) took out an insurance policy with Lloyds of London against loss of revenue if Chinese student enrollment dropped b/c Chinese students are so fundamental to their budget balance.
I don’t know, Craig. Products and services come and go. The idea of something so deadly as communism permeating through the whack job Marx seems pretty important to stop in all of its outlets.
China and all of its thuggish tactics have to be stamped out.
I didn't vote for Trump, thought he was a loudmouth and a blowhard. However, I could put that aside because many of his policies, and proposals were spot on when it came to technology and data collection.
Unfortunately too many people had Trump Derangement Syndrome and couldn't set aside their feelings and visceral reaction to anything he said, did, or proposed as policy or legislation. And we're worse off for it.
The same digital manipulation (influence) noted in this article has been strategically used on those who are predisposed to Trump Derangement Syndrome. "They" know what makes those with TDS tick. Watch it, "they" tried everything they could to get rid of Trump. Since he is still here, "they" will pivot to the manipulation of Republicans to take him out, as if "they" won't do the same thing to Desantis. "They" do not want Schedule F, decentralization of Washington DC power, secure borders, energy independence, free speech, safe streets, or a stable Middle East. These things all benefit the West and Global stability which threaten China's plan to become hegemon. "They" must keep the Democrats and the corrupt in power, at all costs.
They don't hate Trump, they fear him. The contrived hatred is just misdirection to distract you from what is really going on.
I think most hate him. The more intelligent, or perhaps committed, fear him. He was also right when he said "they" weren't coming after him, they were coming after me and people who see things as I do.
He said “They not coming for me they coming for you I’m just in the way”
Triple “D” distract, disrupt destroy that’s the Democrats
“...Fears of Chinese manipulation of American elections has, curiously, not deterred candidates in those elections from using the app. More politicians than ever—one-third of Democratic contenders and 12 percent of Republican—are deploying TikTok to reach Gen Z voters...”
Lol gee, I wonder why a third of Democrats and a tenth of Republicans aren’t deterred by TikTok’s threat to national security? Could it be because they’re all owned by the CCP? Peter Schweizer’s “Red-Handed” is a must read for anyone interested in just compromised our political class really is.
The simpler theory is "They understand that using TikTok increases their chances of winning elections."
Best answer here today it’s the power and the ultimate theft to keep it
TY, M. Mel. Went to add book to list, and found I'd already bought it. Sheesh. Now to start reading. TY again.
NP. It was a real eye opener for me
I’m listening to “Red-Handed” now. Thank you!
Lenin was said to have written “When it comes time to hang the capitalists, they will vie with each other for the rope contract.” Whether or not he really did, America is being just as greedy and short-sighted in this digital age of TikTok and the rise of the Chinese authoritarian surveillance state.
Frankly, I think _all_ apps are problematic. Companies are global, no? True, TikTok may be more under the control of the Chinese government than Apple is, say, under the control of the U.S. government, but in the end, TikTok, Twitter, Facebook, WhatsApp—they're all little data plantations waiting for the right bots to harvest them.
Thing is that privacy is just not important to TikTok's main user base—GenZ and the more experimental Millennials. They essentially grew up without it. And they don't value it.
And shutting the barn door after the horses have escaped probably won't do much at this point.
"Thing is that privacy is just not important to TikTok's main user base—GenZ and the more experimental Millennials. They essentially grew up without it. And they don't value it."
This is such a crucial point—absolutely key to the challenge of preserving America's values and independence. We have dug ourselves a VERY deep hole. I hope we can actually get out of it, but it feels a little hopeless if we have to rely on younger generations who care so much less (if at all) for our fundamental principles.
Nope we won’t be able to dig ourselves out, and the Gen Z generation are digging the hole even deeper. They don’t give a sh.. about anybody in America and please don’t give me the BS about climate change because they don’t even know where planet earth is. In fact everything exist on their IPhones and Tik Tok we can’t be shocked at where we are as a nation.
It's in pain sight and most people don't want to see it. Social media has perfectly exploited the most basic of human vulnerability, validation.
Yep.
"A previous order under the Trump administration would have required ByteDance to sell TikTok to an American..."
And that's the closest we come to an acknowledgement that Trump was years ahead on this, and "progressives" stopped him from protecting the country from Chinese influence, just like they stopped him from shutting down the borders to the Chinese coronavirus.
Meanwhile, there's loads of evidence that the Chinese have previously bribed our current president's family. Explicit acknowledgement from Deborah Birx that the Chinese wrote our COVID policies. They feed propaganda and mental illness to our kids, encouraging everything they outlaw back in China. This isn't coincidence, it's strategy. Weaken your enemy before you go to war, and don't begin until you have won.
Hopefully progressives start catching up to conservatives on this and other issues of national security, but given the midterms, I think America's Democrats are already prepared in their hearts to strip our rights and vote our sovereignty away. They began years ago and vote for more of the same, and there's growing relationship and similarity between the CCP and the Democratic Party. "Social justice" is fundamentally Marxism and it's now being explicitly written into everything from kindergarten curriculums to Congressional legislation.
Excellent comment. Put mine below to shame!
I am a cybersecurity professional working at a well-known multinational firm -- we have been warning about TT for these reasons (and others) since 2017. This should be shared far and wide. Seriously, get off TikTok, and get your kids off, too
Leia, is it even possible to ban TikTok in any given country? Could the U.S. do that, or would users just find a workaround?
Could ban them from Google Play or Apple store, which effectively cuts off access to most of their users. That's what they did to Parler, despite that app being in no way a threat to national security.
Trump was right again.
Lol....
Has anyone commenting on this thread actually USED TikTok... as in you actually have the app on your phone and scrolled and liked things? I generally feel that these comment sections lean toward readers that may be 50+ (correct me if I'm wrong) but as someone who turns 30 next year, yes I've used TikTok and the majority of my friends do as well.
After about 2 months of heavily using it a year ago, I had to delete it because it was easily the MOST addicting social media app I have ever experienced. One day something in me kind of shifted and I knew I needed to get rid of it.
The algorithm is unparalleled... It kind of made me feel like my IQ levels were being lowered on a daily basis and my brain didn't know how to do other daily life tasks. The biggest risk is that at surface level TikTok appears innocent. It's just "people dancing"... but as someone who has used the app it didn't take very long for them to feed me exactly what I wanted to see and to get me hooked. There's so much subliminal messaging underneath the layers of comedy and dancing.
Haven't other social media companies had ties to China before? I'd like to see a comparison to illustrate exactly why TikTok is more dangerous than Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, etc. Is it only in the way our data is stored and harvested or is it more than that?
Is banning the app entirely the way to go? I know I personally wouldn't mind it, and I sure as heck would get my kids off of it ASAP if I were you. But get rid of all the other social media giants while you're at it too.
Yes, I used it for about a year, mainly because my kid and her friends were all on it. It's an amazing app, addictive as you say, but also very well written and designed. There are some incredible talents there. I learned how to moonwalk from one of them. It's too bad that it's based in Communist China. If they were not Communist, but a democracy like Japan or Taiwan, it would be just the addictive aspects that would be objectionable, but that's a tribute to their genius, not a criticism.
Some of us are under 50 here, yes, and your experience is exactly what happened to my daughter. Thank goodness she was awake to what was happening—she took what was virtual and was making it a physical reality—scary. That experience has created a Common Sense Bari Weiss fan though, so not all bad. Ticktock is worse than other social platforms by far per my daughter’s experience.
I am naturally averse to this type of stuff and would eat s$*# and die before I became part of a hive, but you have confirmed what the "50+" commenters recognize instinctively.
I've watched compilation videos on YouTube to get the idea and they're not only incredibly addictive, they warp the mind's ability to focus. It's like a drug high for your emotions, nonstop stimulation with no effort required.
Immediately get back old fashioned engaging
TY for post. Interesting.
I wasn't on the computer for a period, so I've just barely glanced at SM. Glad I never got hooked.
All that to say... They're all addictive. They were designed to be. Apparently China's better at it than the U.S. I agree the solution is to get rid-a all-a them, but it'll never happen. Can dream...
In answer to Your question: The difference who holds on to the data and for what purposes. AFAIK, the U.S. companies just use it to addict You. Keep Your attention on their apps. So they can advertise junk for You to buy. (So You can run up credit card debt. But that's just a side benefit to the banks. Nothing to do with the SM companies, because I doubt if they're getting kickbacks.)
Something the article fails to address is the content of TikTok that gets the most views and goes viral. It’s mostly anti-West. Young people think that western values are uniquely terrible (cis-hetero-patriarchy, anyone?) and are ignorant about atrocities ongoing in other countries. Not my original thought - something I learned from Douglas Murray.
I'm deeply skeptical that the TikTok videos that get the most views are the ones that are anti-Western. I'd imagine that the most viewed videos on TikTok are of people dancing or doing other fun and silly things rather than videos that are political in nature. Do you or Douglas Murray have any data to support the claim that political videos that are explicitly anti-Western are the ones drawing the majority of the views on TikTok?
Yeah, my comment was a bit vague. The most viral videos are of course the light stuff like dancing and cooking but the overall political trends on Tiktok seem to be things that tear down Western values. I have no data as I’m just an observer, but Douglas Murray is a great and well-researched author whose book The War on The West brought this to my attention so if you’re interested in data, I’d look there.
Excellent book
Hi Yan,
Why is the onus on Douglas Murray or Serena to provide evidence of Chinese wrongdoing? The aggressive CCP does not hide from the fact they seek to incorporate their vision for the 21st Century, with them in charge.
Regards,
Chris
Guilty until proven innocent! Sounds just like the American way. China authoritarian. China bad.
Authoritarian is bad whether in the US or China. But is there debate that China currently has an authoritarian government? Personally I think the US is well on the way but there is vigorous debate about that.
In 1981, Michael Crichton’s movie, Looker, was released. 41 years ago. The premise is that a company, Looker Labs, had developed technology to tailor what people saw on television to their individual brain activity. James Coburn plays a cameo, but critical part as John Reston, CEO of Looker Labs. He is addressing a meeting of his Board of Directors. Here’s his speech—and bear in mind that this is over 40 years ago:
John Reston: Television can control public opinion more effectively than armies of secret police, because television is entirely voluntary. The American government forces our children to attend school, but nobody forces them to watch T.V. Americans of all ages *submit* to television. Television is the American ideal. Persuasion without coercion. Nobody makes us watch. Who could have predicted that a *free* people would voluntarily spend one fifth of their lives sitting in front of a *box* with pictures? Fifteen years sitting in prison is punishment. But 15 years sitting in front of a television set is entertainment. And the average American now spends more than one and a half years of his life just watching television commercials. Fifty minutes, every day of his life, watching commercials. Now, that's power.
************************
I’d call this prescience.
This amazes me, too. We're on this earth for a mere speck of time in the grand scheme of things and there is so much to see and do, why waste it watching television? Or Tik Tok? Or endlessly surfing the web. Sure, a few programs can be fun after a long day, but when I see people retire and then spend the next 30 years sitting in a chair watching TV it makes me sad.
I don't know any retired people, so You may be right. But going by what I do, You should be more worried about all the people of *all* ages who use social media of *any* kind (other than Substacks).
You amongst them?
I have to maintain a social media presence for work, i.e. I post stuff on Twitter and Facebook for business, but don't use either one personally and have avoided Tik Tok also (though I did get sucked into watching Vine for the brief time it existed)
Glad to "hear." Too bad about work. Depends how it's used, of course.
Michael Crichton was very prescient on a lot of things.
“Exhibit A: the Senate race in Pennsylvania, in which both Democrat John Fetterman and his Republican rival, Mehmet Oz, deployed TikTok, with Oz railing against the cost of vegetables in one video, and Fetterman slamming Oz for saying “crudité” in a highly effective response”
——————————————————
Imagine running an ad about the price of groceries when your opponent is a lumbering, impaired, skinhead, ogre who CHASED A BLACK GUY DOWN THE STREET WITH A SHOTGUN.
Imagine the ogre WINS!
You can’t defeat an ogre with campaign ads about okra.
Cuz okra is obviously a foreign influenced vegetable...
That’s only edible breaded and fried
"....a win for centrist Democrats."
Now that's funny. Name one "centrist Democrat" (and don't say Joe Manchin).
Sorry but if you vote for the garbage pushed by Pelosi, Schumer and the Squad, you are no "centrist." Because no matter how "moderate" they claim to be, their entire party has been captured by leftist cant and they all vote in lockstep.
Just like the leftist apparatchiks they are.
So no surprise they'd embrace tik-tok. After all, the head of their party took Chinese Communist cash. Who else would be "the Big Guy?"
China is already using data on their citizens in the US to control their behavior. When they find a political statement contrary to CCP doctrine they threaten punishment of their relatives back in China, loss of financial support, or bullying by Chinese agents in the US.
I am not quite sure how this would work with Americans. Perhaps they would dox Americans who speak out about Chinese atrocities. Maybe their agents would engineer 'accidents' for the most serious offenses. It is troubling.
"Accidents" engineered by a foreign State against private citizens inside the USA would be acts of war. More broadly, missing from the entire article is any description whatsoever of the types of crimes China might commit against Gen-Z through its massive collection of data.
I don't think it'd be hard to figure out. Take what Twitter and them all do. Magnify that by infinity, and turn it over to a government that wants world dominance? What could possibly go wrong.
I noticed that, too. I was hoping for concrete examples to really clarify the scope of the threat. I think most Americans—especially Gen Z—associate tech with convenience and entertainment and don't have enough basic knowledge of how data is used to have the imagination for how it might harm. People who DO know this stuff need to speak to that lack—they need to fill in the blanks so that people can really see and understand the threat.
People will see and believe what they want to see and believe which most often is not reality because it conflicts with their wants.
I agree there are many people who are entrenched/invested in their habitual ways of thinking and being and are not open to new information. But that doesn't argue against planting seeds of knowledge and perspective. The only way people can wake up is if they have ideas or experiences that offer a contrasting view. And humans are capable of having their eyes opened, otherwise no one could ever change and grow.
Well said, it brings me a sense of optimism about our future, i hope for this kind of an open mindedness for all.
The prevention of that is why critical thinking matters.