After seven years of fighting, Joe Kennedy—who was benched for praying on the 50-yard line after high school football games—speaks to TFP on the eve of his comeback.
God forbid we have a leader of young men in this country that leads by humility, determination and faith in front of his students. This is probably the only interaction in many of these young kids lives where they get to see this. No one is forcing them to participate. Given all the negative landmines these young men have to try not to step on today (social media, porn, gender fluidity nonsense, drugs, the attack on masculinity), the idea that community leaders like Kennedy, that show faith & belief in something other than themselves, is viewed as a negative by some people is simply astonishing. Just sayin.....
What's amazing is that if I read that correctly, the person who ordered him to stop--ironically out of fear of lawsuits, apparently, which is to say out of FEAR--was a member of his church.
I'm not a Christian, but it is obvious to me that if you are not willing to defend your faith, and practice it when people tell you to stop, you aren't a Christian. Full Stop. The Bible, which I was raised reading, is very, very clear on that. That superintendant should either stop going to church--and perhaps the pastor should stop preaching--or they should admit they failed their faith and atone for it by not being effing cowards in the future.
The First Amendment is clear, as is its history, as is the common sense behind it. You will neither be forced to participate IN religion, or in any way constrained from practicing your religion. You won't be forced to join a church, and you will not be forced out of a church. You do you, in public, but you can't force anyone to join you.
People voluntarily praying in public are obviously free to do so. The line is only crossed if participation becomes a requirement to play, and people are required to be there. That was not the case here.
If you cannot express what is in your heart at a given moment, you are not free. And if you cannot speak your truth, you learn to lie; and that is why our media and public lives have become saturated with obvious and ridiculous lies.
This display of cowardice by Christian clergy and "leadership" was on full display nationwide in spring 2020. The capitulation to the Covid lockdown of churches will continue to exact its price on church attendance for years to come.
Not only churches also in synagogues. The only faith that seems to be strong is Islam. There mosques have almost full attendance on Fridays, there communities are strong and when they have to protest at something like gender mutilation in schools they come out in droves. It’s really nice to see the support they give each other in their communities.
I am not the least bit religious but I am not anti-religious. Religion gives comfort and solace to billions of people worldwide. I go to church to please my wife. I may not be religious but I am not crazy.
I will support moderate religions and overt acts of religion but I won't support religious fanatics who try and force their particular faith on other people. I will not support a religion that denigrates and stones women and beheads women or homosexuals, cuts off peoples' hands or tortures to death people of other faiths like ISIS does.
As far as the coach praying on the football field, to me it falls under, who cares. He's demonstrating his faith. So what! He's not forcing it on me or others. If you ban him, what next? Are you going to ban the Baptist from paying for billboard saying, "Come to First Baptist for the Peace and Comfort of Jesus Christ" or putting up a sign in front of the Church advertising the church's religious calendar of sermons?
The left hates Christianity but loves the Religion of Peace. Go figure!
With regards to your questions, there is a lot of case law decisions involving signage (Reed v Town of Gilbert comes to mind which I believe was a 9-0 Supreme Court decision). Generally content-based restrictions on signage (as in your examples above) would likely not hold up.
Muslims are a scary minority and implicitl BIPOC something something, so yes, the lunatics only harass people they know they can get away with bullying, which is mostly their ostensible friends and neighbors. The whole thing is cowardly, ugly and stupid.
Google it, I think you’ll find several examples…. It has and does continue to happen. Finding the balance, time to pray, time to work, is doable but sometimes employers need to be nudged in the right direction…
We are decadent. They are, for now, less decadent. I would argue, though, that decadence is a choice that becomes a habit. Like all choices, it can be changed and reversed, but it takes awareness and will to do that. When that will is finally gone, then nothing will save that nation or people; and perhaps that is how it should be. Nothing last forever, at least in this reality.
Right Skinny and BigE. Our synagogue did not open for in person services until late 2022, and that was limited, with masks and social distancing and a cap on the number of people. Almost THREE years after the initial shut down, they opened up for business as usual!! But guess what, new habits were formed (watching from home in pj's) and now they bombard us with messages of the importance of face to face and community. Too little, too late as far as I'm concerned, I'm so pi**ed about it.
Yes. A church near Santa Cruz refused to buckle under and stayed open for congregational worship, subjecting itself to fines by local officials. The main source of reporting this church’s “violations” to the authorities was the mainstream Protestant church next door, which had allowed itself to be shut.
I don't see how that squares with Frankie being more than a little chummie and comfortable with the Junta that disappeared lefties and chucked folk from helicopters; but whatever. The Pope is a criminal six ways 'til Tuesday whatever way you look at it. It is a pity you can only kill someone once.
My synagogue did not have in person services for THREE years! My Catholic friend went to mass for all but the first six weeks of shut down. It was eye opening to me, and I'm still pi**ed at the leadership at my synagogue.
Many mainstream Christian churches remained closed for way too long during the pandemic. I suspect that the leadership of these denominations were falling in line with the government's fearmongering, even though many people in their congregations were able to make an intelligent risk assessment for themselves. In fact, it became a symbol of partisanship, which reinforced their mutual decisions. "Science" became the whipping boy, and it hasn't recovered to this day.
I would add that Tim Tebow was also taking knees before Colin Kaepernick, and he was told he could not do that. No principle was involved, obviously: it was the naked exercise of power in support of prejudice.
Excellent point. Tebow was ridiculed and ostracized. And he’s definitely a better man than that idiot bible versed tatted Colin who did it out of pique egged on by his Muslim girlfriend.
Barry, I second your excellent point about the hypocrisy of responses between Kapernick and Tebow’s actions. Same physical demonstration but polar opposite meaning. One (Tebow) was vilified and TOLD TO STOP BY THE NFL, and one (Kapernick) was ALLOWED TO CONTINUE BY THE NFL and signed to lucrative corporate endorsements. My interest in football, which had already been waning because of the way they were handling concussions and CTE, went to zero. These actions by the NFL for me were the beginnings of what are now referred to as “woke” corporate speak/virtue signaling.
I've given up on the NFL as well. It's also patently corrupt. The post season last year was simply ludicrous. They don't even seem to be trying to hide it any more.
As a kid I was a fan by any definition. I stopped watching NFL when the wokesters forced my beloved Redskins to change their name (over the objections of blacks and actual native Americans I might add!) to the WTF. That was the last straw.
I stopped watching. My kids don’t watch. Their kids won’t watch. It’s over.
Although football has been ruined for me twice, once by the hysterical lunatics, and once by the Mafia that seems to run this country and control the NFL.
'People voluntarily praying in public are obviously free to do so. The line is only crossed if participation becomes a requirement to play, and people are required to be there. That was not the case here.'
I see your point. It's great in theory - but. I'm not sure how old his players were. Let's say they were twelve to fourteen years old. They're kids. They want to make the team. They want to impress their coach. They want to continue to play. They're impressionable, obviously. Who's to say that the coach's propensity to pray publicly wasn't latched on to by his young charges as a way to curry favour? And once a lot of the youngsters joined, peer pressure brought others on board.
I went to Catholic school as a youngster. Mass was mandatory every Friday. It took every fiber of my being to finally say no, I was not going to attend any more. I was thirteen years old. I was shunned for weeks by teachers and many pupils - but I was allowed to skip Mass until I transferred out of that school. There were many other kids I knew who hated Mass and everything spoken about within, but felt compelled to go.
The very same argument could be made about students attending blm protests or wearing political t shirts and badges. They may feel pressured to agree with their teachers’ politics. And peer pressure always factors in at that age.
Is it any different with the transgender nonsense? If you sent your kids to a hippy school today, no doubt they would wind up gender confused in short order. That is why parents need to be involved in parenting.
You have to admit that Catholic Schools are well within their rights to demand kids attend Mass. It's a private school, and your parents presumably spent good money for you to go there, knowing that explicit and regular exposure to Christianity would be part of the curriculum.
Obviously, in any social system there is pressure to conform, but in this particular case there appears to have been none; and in any event, if nothing is being forced, then that is meaningful freedom. And if the kids are younger, then the parents need to weigh in. This is something to be negotiated by people affected, not something government needs to be involved in, in any way, shape or form.
50 years ago this simply would not and could not have been a problem. Prayer at sporting events is as old as sports.
I did not say government needs to be involved. And I did not say that parents should not be involved. Mine allowed me to do what I thought was best.
And how do you know really that there was not pressure to conform here? Were any of the kids asked later if they felt that they should go along with everybody else? I don't know. Perhaps you do.
Interesting juxtaposition you make about a kid not wanting to follow religious instruction - ie dogma - and that of kids being allowed to short circuit their bodies because they're (terribly) misguided as to what gender they belong to. One example pertains to having an open mind on the part of the child, and the other belongs to authorities caving in to the misguided sensitivities of a new found curriculum and medical guidance - ie a closed mind on the part of the adults minding the kids - who as I said before, are highly impressionable at that age.
I personally find it curious that apparently all of this coach's kids 'found the light' and thought praying to God was the next best thing.
But it doesn’t say that every kid chose to join the coach in prayer. Also, what was the incentive for kids from the opposing team who also joined in? You’re trying hard to make a point about peer pressure here, which is funny, because peer pressure manifests in so many ways in school. I hope you bring the same energy to the negative ones as you do in worrying about whether kids felt pressed to prayerfully express gratitude. Lol. You have all these reservations about what was *really* in the hearts of these kids, but how is that our business? Prayer is powerful. Gratitude is life changing. I have no problem believing these kids felt uplifted when participating with their brothers in a shared spiritual humility and gratitude. You should try it! No pressure. ;)
Also the whole point is that the coach stuck to his principles. He was not rewarded by his employer and community or upheld as a leader to emulate; he was blatantly discriminated against and fired, but he stayed the course. Kids probably learned more of value from that than anything else in public high school.
I guess I'm just more cynical than you. Peer pressure is terrible however it's manifested, that is true. Social media, of course, exacerbates that. But just because this involves Christian religious prayer does not mean children didn't feel the need to follow the leader in order to feel accepted.
And, as I wrote earlier, I did try it when young. And I walked away..
Part of growing up is dealing with the pressure to conform. And it comes from every direction. Think of all the cliques in school. Whether it is the teachers getting you to conform to their standards, the cheerleaders, the jocks, nerds or the stoners; if you want to hang around you damn well better conform. Don't conform and there is a lack of trust that you truly are part of the group. The problem displayed here in the church and the one in San Jose (Calvary Chapel) is that the members have conformed to the world rather than the faith. Granted, there is a whole pandora's box you can explore there, but I would say in our area the churches that resisted the encroachment of the government in 2020 are growing and those that embraced woke ideology are not. There is something about freedom that simply enhances growth.
Not baggage, Lynne. Life experience. I find it slightly hard to believe that all the kids playing under this guy quickly got converted into praying out in the open, simply because he somehow showed them that the way forward in life was to pray. That's quite a religious contagion, if you ask me. I can't help but think the quite a few of those kids were smarter than their coach, and went along with it all to make sure they played.
I stand by my comment. I used the term baggage because it seems to me your life experience left a bad taste in your mouth that colors your perception of religion to this day. So much for open-mindedness.
Perhaps the word baggage should be replaced with wisdom. My wisdom would be different from yours, real world personal travels do that to people - but the open mindedness you accuse me of not possessing allows me to read your articulate comments, your wisdom as it were, with the open mind it deserves. I will not convince you, nor you me, but discuss we do.
Because my gut tells me the coach knew his young charges would follow him. (And those of the other team). And that he would create the public parade he sought.
I guess I just have a cynical view of human nature. And if you don’t, then good for you.
I taught in public schools and a private Christian school. I don't think that was the case here, that would have been just cause to fire the coach. He just did it and some kids wanted to join him. Best guess for any "requirement to pray" would be internal, wanting to be with their friends praying on the field
Being a member of a church doesn't necessarily mean much. The church I grew up in had tons of great people...but it also had a few people who, outside of church, were selfish greedy people. I don't know where this superintendent's faith lies, and it doesn't really matter. As the Coach said, this was really about Rights. And that Super was more concerned with political fallout than trying to uphold someone's rights.
It's not just rights, but honest faith in the Christian gospel. You can believe in God and you can believe in Government, but you have to prioritize, and if you TRULY believe in God, there is only one acceptable sequence.
And keep in mind, the superintendant was not even responding to complaints, but to POSSIBLE complaints. It's like people who get offended on behalf of other people who are not even there. The superintendent is obviously lacking fully in judgement, honest faith in Jesus, and basic common sense and guts.
The superintendent's fear overcame his faith. Too bad, but, today I'm sure he regrets that decision, much like churches regret the decision to close during the pandemic. I'm willing to guess that given a do-over the superintendent would choose differently, I know churches would "do" the pandemic differently, most say they will never close again. The superintendent and the pastor both deserve forgiveness and grace.
I have always thought that some of the most strident devotees are that way because they need saving the most. Sort of like some reformed alcoholics or smokers.
Cowards. Pastors, schools superintendent, current coaching staff... cowards. Great job coach. Too bad he settled for less than $5.5 million. AND he lost money in this ordeal. Gotta sue these bastards... ESPECIALLY governments.
Neither the coach nor the superintendent did anything wrong or failed their faiths. Each had a position to protect, each acted accordingly, and the Supreme Court sorted it out. The system worked as it was supposed to.
In a society functioning as a truly liberal social order, the Supreme Court would not have been involved at all. This guy had a lot of years of frustration and emotional pain as a result of something that should have been obviously allowed as a matter of common sense and common decency. That is obvious to me. How is it not obvious to you?
In a perfect world, we wouldn’t need courts and lawsuits. It’s not a perfect world. Here, two rights clashed. The system solved it, which is why I said it worked.
So if I sued you for saying that, and after ten years and millions of dollars of your own and donated money defending yourself my lawsuit was thrown out you would call that a success of "The System"? That is the logic. I just want to make it clear, so as to give you a chance to backtrack if you choose to.
Why on earth would I backtrack? What I said is true: in the specific case of Coach vs. School, the system worked as intended. I can't speak to your hypotheticals.
Sure they did something wrong. That's why they lost. And IMO they are continuing to do so with the 25 ft. prohibition. They are actually violating the rights of anyone else who wants to join.
Agree completely about the 25-foot rule---school system should have been graceful about it and said, "Awright, Coach, you won fair and square, have at it." But institutions don't give in very easily.
Disagree about doing something wrong. Both views had merit until SCOTUS said otherwise. This had to go through the court system to see who won the blue ribbon, and it did.
I bet Joe Biden prayed to save his Corvette from that kitchen fire.
I’m putting the comparison of this Kennedy guy to Kaepernick right up there with comparing 9/11 to Jan 6 and Joe Biden comparing his lighting strike to 1,000 people burning alive in Lahaina.
Yes but it was never an argument about rights it was an argument about how he was shitting on the country and NFL fans like the country so the NFL gets to fire him. People who like the country also have rights.
Marxists made it an argument about speech rights, which it wasn’t, because they are psychopaths and that’s what psychopaths do; they weaponize your ethics and morals against you.
None of this is easy. Does a store have the right to fire a person with garish tattoos and piercings or who wears blatantly political messages - either BLM or KKK insignia I think they do. And as you point out, the NFL is a business, not an arm of the government. So when the national anthem is played and someone exhibits blatant disrespect for it, should they be fired? Probably. But only because no government policy mandates that the anthem be played.
It clearly is a case that the rights of the left are much more protected than the rights of the right. Kap probably drove many away from the NFL, but I believe the gamblers have brought many back.
Many, many, many of the premiere college football players who go on to success in the NFL start as babies in Christian affiliated football camps. Many (most?) are in Florida.
Oh my...I just totally laughed out loud. I'm trying to think of something clever and funny to add about ice cream also being involved but I'm at a loss.
Thanks for info Brian, my finger was hovering over the post or cancel button and my eye was reading how badly I had written Trevor Noah, so I pushed post by mistake. Then I started looking for the delete button, couldn’t find that, so I corrected it all in the next post.
In high school, peer pressure forces them to participate. The late George Carlin said it best: "Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time! But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more."
Yes, my 80 year old pastor took a survival salary and spent his last years building small town infrastructure because he wanted to get rich off of religion. The "business" aspect.
Cherry picking the most negative examples of an institution and qualifying the entire institution as such is not genius, it's hate. Religion is a far bigger subject than the monetary aspects alone, and for most religious people there is little to no financial gain involved.
Cool that your pastor built small-town infrastructure. I mean that, I admire him for such a selfless thing. But you're cherry-picking religion with that story as much as you claim Carlin did with his. For every selfless pastor you have a televangelist and a sadistic principal of a church school designed to beat the Indian out of the child.
Carlin is a comedian. He cherry-picks the universe, makes jokes out of what he finds, and gets a laugh. Take it for what it is.
I told you what I think it is. I take it as willful ignorance of the purpose and substance of religion in favor of hypocritical bigoted ignorance spreading hatred as comedy.
What I did was raise examples that disprove his concept of religion and here are more:
Amazonian religious ceremonies existing before institutionalized money
Buddhist monks renouncing all wealth
Early Christian communal communities
Catholics monks living in poverty
Shinto honoring ancestors with no concept of financial gain
How many more "cherry picked" examples of non-financial religion do you need before you acknowledge that religion isn't defined by money, and you're actually just talking about a tiny, insignificant number of American con artists?
"For every selfless pastor you have a televangelist..."
No that ratio isn't remotely near one to one, it is more like a thousand to one - your claim is exactly the hateful ignorance I'm talking about.
“The late George Carlin said it best” means that you regard his description of Christianity and Judaism as the “best” available. I would describe it as one of the worst available, because of the snarky ignorance it reveals and the hopelessness it foments.
I feel sorry for you. God loves you. God’s grace is very real, and it’s available for you - to make your life on earth better, even if belief in eternal salvation is a step too far. All you need do, is pray for God to shed His grace upon you. Open yourself to it. You have nothing to lose, and everything to gain.
God and Religion are two separate things. Carlin made sport of Religion, and appropriately so, given his era, filled with tidal waves of televangelists trying to separate you from your wallet so they could live as kings and queens.
His era was at the same time as The Jesus People depicted in the recent movie "Jesus Revolution". People pick and choose what they want to see and highlight. I find that most that want to ignore Christ's claim on their life only see the negative things done by "Christians", whether those folks are truly walking in allegiance to him or not is probably immaterial. Insert Jesus parable here of the wheat and the tares. But also, Christians screw up and do not represent Christ well at times. I know I'm not always the best rep.
A nice reply, Chris, thanks. That's why I made the distinction in another comment between God and Religion. God is run by, of course, God. Religion is a creation of humans and whether it will be perceived as good, bad, or indifferent depends entirely on the fallible humans who represent it. All religions have that issue, which is why I try to look past the bad parts to see what the good parts are.
But my (non-Christian) faith in God is strong enough to be able to laugh when Carlin does his riffs on religion. God thinks it's funny, why shouldn't I?
I agree that God and religion are not the same thing, and that some televangelists have given religion a bad name. But read Carlin again. He was also mocking a belief in God.
Belief in God makes your life on earth better? Perhaps you can mail that one to God loving families of people slain in Ukraine, to Russian soldiers' mothers, to the families of the incinerated in Maui. The list is too long of course, only a few millennia, but God knows..
These peer pressure comments are so funny. How long has it been since you were in high school? Lol ... do you really think praying to God is a socially promoted or even accepted phenomenon in public schools? Did you miss the part where the coach was fired for it? In public high school today there is certainly a lot of pressure coming at teens, but it is not to kneel down and thank the Lord for their blessings, then humbly pray with and for their rivals. If only.
I realize this might come as a shock, but George Carlin was a comedian.
His schtick was talking about subjects that generated laughs because they were taboo and/or made people uncomfortable. Assuming he was a philosopher or driven to improve peoples lives had a higher priority than making people laugh might possibly, could be, something of a mistake. But hey, if you want to take life advice from a comedian have at it.
Would love to see George Carlin generate laughs about taboo subjects such as Pride Month and the whole trans train. In other words, mocking religion is OK, mocking progressive ideals, not OK.
And he really cares about the outcome of high school football games. I found this essay a bit bewildering - sure, the coach should be free to pray wherever and whenever he wants, but how can he think that an omnipotent being would - forgive me - give a damn?
I thank God for a beautiful day, the rain, my grandchildren, my husband, my critters, so many things that bring me joy. Do I think that by doing so my joy will necessarily increase? No, I do it because He made me and all around me and I am grateful. He is my friend and my Savior. By the way, I also thank him for the negative things in life because those are where growth happens and also make me appreciate the positives more.
Beautifully said. I'm grateful for the wonderful life he's given me and all the wonderful people and things (food, housing) he's provided me. Do people rally believe that their lives are all a happy accident? Sad.
I taught at a Catholic high school named after Mary. Whenever our school played another Catholic school in football they would say that God doesn’t pick sides - but his mother does (our beloved school priest was quite the comedian)
Consider the infinite power and knowledge of God… every single thing that happens on Earth is tiny and insignificant compared to Him. So if He cares about one thing, He cares about all things. He has infinite mercy and care for all things, even the tiny insignificant things.
Because the idea is that He cares about everyone. So if football mattered to this Coach, the Lord heard his prayer. His prayer was after the game so it was not "[P]lease Lord, let us win". Although it might well have been "[T]hank you Lord for giving these young men success on the field[.]" or "[T]hank you Lord for seeing these young men safely through this competition". . .
Perfect illustration of the selfish mindset destroying the world wielded by people who could never imagine doing something if they don’t get a treat for it.
Just sayin': “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you."
If you are saying that only prayer conducted in private is meaningful I do not think that is accurate. I think sincere prayer is the standard. Prayer to be seen by others is not sincere prayer.
I understand that c9ncept. I j7st do not accept that all public prayer is ostentatious, prideful or insincere. Otherwise all those prayers when young Mr. Hamlin collapsed on the field would be deemed insincere. And I think they were anything but. I also think they were heard and answered. I also think the rev8vals that recently swept college campuses were heartfelt. That being said I have known some very insincere Christians, or at least they seemed that way to me, who are in church every time the doors open.
Seems to me that a prayer off of public property would have sufficed. His goal is not God or the salvation of souls. His goal is self promotion. Too bad. Now we get to know who he is. His ego is without bounds.
“Just as Kennedy proved divisive, so too did Kaepernick. Just as Kennedy was pushing back against an encroaching illiberalism on the left, Kaepernick was pushing back against the illiberalism of the right.”
——————————————————————
That is not what Kaepernick was doing. Kaepernick was protesting the United States because he thinks it is a shitty country that has slave patrols killing Black people. He thinks this because he is a moron.
My kids were very involved in CYO (Catholic Youth Organization) sports through middle school. Every CYO sporting event began and ended with a standard prayer - where the teams, coaches, and fans prayed together for the safety of the participants and for a spirited and fair sporting event. It was one of the aspects that I enjoyed the most about CYO sports.
To your point, I suspect that Kennedy was praying for the same sort of things, The comparison with Kaepernick is simply ridiculous.
My favorite part about the Kaepernick story was that his teammate Eric Reid was also involved, also took a knee, and stated that he had to make a protest because of the shooting by police of "unarmed black people" like Alton Sterling specifically, whose story affected Reid the most because it had just happened in Reid's hometown.
Alton Sterling was armed, and the police were specifically responding in his case to citizens calling in and describing an armed man waving a gun around.
Reid's op-ed in NYT: "In early 2016, I began paying attention to reports about the incredible number of unarmed black people being killed by the police. The posts on social media deeply disturbed me, but one in particular brought me to tears: the killing of Alton Sterling in my hometown Baton Rouge, La. This could have happened to any of my family members who still live in the area. I felt furious, hurt and hopeless."
This also demonstrates that the whole thing was social media driven. If huge numbers of unarmed blacks were being killed since forever, how was he oblivious to it prior to 2016.
Another proof of that were the George Floyd-related protests in European cities... it's not even their government, but the social media fed outrage spurred them to illogical action, protesting in London to demand changes at the local law enforcement level in the US.
Anyone on this sub thread have any Black friends? Particularly male Black friends? If so, ask them about their experiences with police. I was pretty shocked. Like when you’re 8, son of a diplomat living in a wealthy neighborhood, and you come out of your neighbor’s house after feeding her cat to find half a dozen police officers with their guns trained on you, screaming at you to get down.
How about when all your friends get caught underage drinking and they arrest the only black kid? Yeah, he had a record - for not returning a vhs tape to a rental store. Meanwhile, my white friends were running a stolen Levi’s resale business.
One of my friends - super chill, not anti-police - finally exchanged his BMW for a little Toyota because he was sick of being pulled over.
Just consider the possibility that, over time, these sorts of things might build up and make you wary, even if you know intellectually that not all police are racist. Why can so many white folks not accept that we just can’t know what it’s like? Why not have that humility?
Re the claims of “mass murders” of unarmed black men, humans are not known for being nuanced - on either side of an issue. If we don’t agree that something is white, we plant our feet shout “No, it’s black!” There are real problems with policing that for a variety of complicated reasons fall disproportionately on Black men. That’s real and it’s a problem. Yet, polls show most Black people want more police in their communities, not less, which cuts directly against the Defund narrative. But that doesn’t mean they aren’t wary of police, or don’t think policing needs serious reform.
Anyway, I participated in a study of effective policing and know tons of s*** about this stuff, but there are so many factors I’d need at least ten pages to discuss them all. And ain’t nobody got time for that. :)
Yep, but he’s protected under the first amendment, as is your right to express your opinion in the public square. A constitution that was revolutionary and still is today.
One was a direct attack on the customer base of a business, by an employee of the business, done specifically to be maximally visible.
The other was done quietly at a public school event in a way that would only offend psychopaths who hate Christians. Devout Christians pray before literally everything.
They are not remotely comparable.
“Oh but they are both legal.”
Yeah I didn’t say one was illegal. I said only a dipshit would compare them. Hope that helps.
And coercive! Do you think that other players didn't feel coerced by that second string quarterback's display? RACIAL SOLIDARITY! How many Black players felt the pressure to do the same just because of the locker room pressure? How many resisted?
To conflate these two cases is cheap journalism and a case of "what aboutism".
I’m sorry I did, I had to bow to Brandon!s pressure, it was all BS the whole Covid story, it’s brought the average American to his/her knees. It’s going to take a whole lot of pray and good leadership to get us on our feet. We need a very strong leader to take us all forward.
Btw, my husband worked for Trump on OWS. He and his fellow scientists worked 18-hour days, 7 days a week for months on end (my husband took his first day off on thanksgiving 2020). They were all doing the very best they could to save lives. And they did. They saved millions of lives. They are heroes and it’s just so sad that you will always consider them scammers and dupes.
Let me remind you, Kaepernick was nobody’s boss. He held the fate of exactly zero of his teammates in his hands. A majority of players never took a knee.
My reply wasn't directed at you or Kopernick, who's a grifter, was just showing my appreciation for the men of their times who produced our Declaration of Independence and Constitution. Which after a quarter century, given todays times, is still revolutionary.
I understand. But the lie is pretending that is relevant. It was a manipulative ploy by left-wing anti-American extremists to wrap Kaepernick in the flag when it had nothing to do with speech rights.
You don’t get to do whatever the f*** you want at work because The Constitution exists.
What's ironic is that the psychopaths thought they were able to stop the coach from praying....yes, on the field but not in his heart and mind. I'm quite sure he probably continued to pray for them in addition to the situation. One of the most amazing and mysterious things Jesus ever told His followers was to love our enemies and to pray for those who persecuted us. He is the only Man that ever said this.
Unless he had tacit approval and support of the ownership of the team, being based in San Francisco, I'm sure he did. The two situations aren't in the least bit similar but both involve freedom of expression, one was suppressed the other was not. Kopernick opinion means nothing to me, as stated he's a grifter.
DD, there are first amendment distinctions between a private business (NFL and individual teams) as compared with a public employee (public school coach). I believe the first amendment prohibits the government from infringing on free speech and is not directly applicable to a private business.
I have a hard time squaring that the First Amendment as it relates to religious liberty has the same interpretation as the First Amendment as it relates to secular protest. They are not handled the same and there are more infringements that are legally accepted for protest. There is also the complication that one is being restricted by a government entity and the other a private business.
They certainly aren't slaves, given they freely apply for these jobs. But they work year-round, not just five months, and given the billions in revenue they generate for television networks, even a few million a year is underpaid.
I agree that being a professional athlete is a full-time job that requires significant sacrifices. You lost me at underpaid. Under the current agreement players get 48.5% of all revenue.
Agreed, but the problem is a big part of that revenue goes to relatively few superstars. The players who grind it out without being TV-worthy catches don't make all that much relative to the work they do and the few years they can serve in the NFL.
I'm not complaining on their behalf, because this is the career they all chose and knew all the pay imbalances upfront. I'm only saying that many---but not all---players are underpaid.
I read your later comment and agree that lower echelon players earn significantly less than the early round picks or those who establish themselves as powerhouses (like Tom Brady for example),but I disagree that they work for the NFL full time. They work for the NFL during pre and off-season training camps, travel to and from games, at practice and during games. Of course it is in their best interest to maintain their skills during the off-season so as not to be beat out for their position. They also maintain their physicality so as to remain competitive,
but also to decrease the likelihood of serious injury, thereby increasing the longevity of their career. Most of these guys come from.NFL light colleges and are well-versed in their value. They do, as I understand it, have contract provisions that limit or prohibit engaging in dangerous activities during the term of the contract. Also the players themselves come and go and are essentially replaceable. The NFL is an entrenched entity with a massive infrastructure, massive advertising value, and massive investment therein.
Yes, they work for their particular teams full-time, with the NFL being the marketing and scheduling power behind the throne.
As for money, a smart person like you already knew average vs. specific wages. If a publisher pays James Patterson $10 million for his next crime novel and pays Shane $10,000 for his, "authors" sure are rich, but Shane still has to work a day job and Jim doesn't.
You don’t read minds. So, you don’t know Kapernick’s mental intentions, a fact.
I think he did this after George Floyd died in police custody. There are always questions about deaths if anyone dies in police custody as there should be. I think it happens to many people but Black Americans more often. I may be wrong but I don’t think so.
George Floyd was in hand cuffs. Why not simply place him in a squad car, take him to the jail where the next level of the justice department takes over. The police have a specific and important roll. They are to apprehend real or assumed offenders and place them into the custody of justice. They will bear witness if required at a later time. They do not judge or pass sentence. A sentence of death was passed onto George Floyd by the police, a role they do not enjoy in our system.
You respond a lot to every article in this “paper” and usually with disdain or anger. The anger is consistent so I imagine you are a simple angry person or you are a shill for the FREE PRESS to garner responses because any attention, shitty or not is commodified.
I find your responses predictable. You are free to speak for sure but you become irrelevant by the day.
He didn’t kneel for a picture of Derek Chauvin. He kneeled for the American flag. I don’t know the custody death stats either but whatever they are I’m sure Democrats are using them to unnecessarily terrorize Black Americans.
Why is it sad? Kennedy was exercising his First Amendment rights, as was Kaepernick. We should be thrilled that people with such diverse thought are both free to exercise their rights under the Constitution.
I do believe in free speech. Bad speech must always be responded to with more speech.
What is sad, is that when an issue (freedom of religion) like the one in this essay is presented, TFP must always present a counter narrative, to muddy the waters. Because of its liberal bias, TFP cannot and will not just present an issue that is important to the right without bringing in something that is important to the left. My view is that the reader is capable doing this alone.
I get what you're saying. To a certain extent I even agree. Unfortunately, both the left and the right love their echo chambers, and I think the reminder that the right are far from angels on this front is important.
This article was going pretty well until the Democrats who write The FP felt the desperate need to shoehorn one of their heroes into it. On the plus side, it's a daily reminder that even sources I put my wallet behind are happily gaslighting me.
His right to do so. It's his right to be an offensive, ignorant, unpatriotic idiot, if that's how you view him. Just like the NFL had the right to stop him. They own the professional game he plays in. Free country. Still. That's why you can say what you like. And that's why the FP has the right as well to make the huge mistake in cancelling you..
I'd hate to see you go, Kevin. (FP won't do it, of course, you're too valuable..)
“Rather, the judgment upholds the right of public employees to exercise their faith through private acts of religious activity on the job.”
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My favorite argument from Democrats on this is the argument that he was intimidating students by praying by himself and they might be coerced into praying. Right.
But the lady waving a dildo around *during class* and talking about group sex and how boys and girls are the same and how you can switch genders because otherwise the patriarchy wins, well she’s just doing The Science.
He's not exactly "praying by himself," he's praying on the 50 yard line. And it's not just any activity we're talking about, it's an ostentatious display of religion at a public school in a country where the constitution prohibits the government from endorsing religion. It's not helpful to be so black and white about this situation which is a tricky one. At the end of the day he has the right to do this but the real question we should all be asking is whether he is right to do this
It's not tricky. The school didn't do it, people at the school did it of their own free will. That's not the government endorsing a religion. Other religions can do it also.
What's far more serious are political activism flags like BLM and the Pride flag being flown in schools, because they behave as religions while exempting themselves from the rules we place on religious beliefs.
The only thing more psychotic than claiming a Christian coach praying equals the government establishing a religion, is the notion that decorative cakes are a public accommodation.
It is absolutely impossible to think that this is an issue/problem unless you have a maniacal hatred for Christians.
I am a christian and I pray, so there's that, but it's telling that the counter-arguments made in this thread go right to anti-LGBT arguments. It's the only religious freedom a lot of people seem to want in 2023 - the right to discriminate against LGBT people
The only reason LGBT is being mentioned is because, by contrast, it exposes the absurd dishonesty of the people pretending a guy praying at a football game is a problem we need to address.
Also, opposing child sexual abuse at the hands of government agents is not a religious position. Kinda insulting to non-believers to suggest that it is. Reminds me of the people who say that ‘hard work’ is a white concept.
Reread it. You’re the one who brought it up. I simply explained it to you.
Or are you not following how 22% of American CHILDREN adopting a boutique SEXUAL identity relates to LGBT indoctrination in schools and is clearly child sexual abuse?
Simply because you don’t want something shoved in your face is not discrimination. I am a Christian but I don’t necessarily want someone yelling in my face that I am going to go to hell if I do not repent my evil ways.
But he's not "the government endorsing". To me the issue here is that he's a coach, so he's in an official capacity. He and the school should work together to sort out how he doesn't pray and give the impression that he's acting in the official capacity representing the school. (And there are many precedents of about this same issue of apparent agency in US court cases.)
Beyond that, I always think the secular Left is very hypocritical. They fought all those years for the right of gays to come out of the closet (which I think is correct), but then they would do everything possible to lock Christians (and that's Christians, specifically) in the closets. They pick issue with any public display of Christianity like it's something we Christians have to hide and be ashamed of. While I know people living in the Evangelical South don't feel this problem at all, elsewhere especially in blue states and cities, it really is a thing. Not so much now but for years they wage what conservatives called "war on Christmas", then deny they were doing that. Meanwhile they get upset over Starbucks using seasonal Christmas coffee cups, and complained about Walmart displaying Merry Christmas decorations. The backlash against Tim Tebow was ridiculous. But that actually went all the way back to Michael Chang. What's it to them that one athlete wanted to thank God for his success? If Christianity was a big and essential part of his life, why did he have to hide it and not talk about it to please these people?
The Constitutional right against imposing religion is not a right to exclude Christians from freely exercising their religion in public. But that's what the secular Left wants. Just all Christians to pray in the closets and be ashamed to come out as a Christian.
The specific difference with gays here - and, separately, why do we drag the gays into ever religious freedom discussion? - is that the constitution prohibits the state from endorsing a religion. So when we have a high profile state employee praying not only on state grounds but at a highly visible location (the 50 yard line), with his public school students, let's not pretend it's just the same thing as a kid saying a little prayer to himself at a desk before an exam.
I address the same thing you did regarding a state employee's apparent agency in representing the government. "Apparent" refers to a legal term, so you and I are not disagreeing here. Other people already pointed out his prayers are after the games. That said, I do think the apparent agency is an issue which in my comment I said it is something he and the school should address and work out. Maybe the problem is today adults can't just talk and come to some kind of solution but instead everything has to be made into political issues.
As for the comparison to gays, I wasn't talking about sexual orientation or religion. I was talking about how people who are anti-Christianity in progressive states in fact really would like Christians to hide their faith in the closets. And that makes them hypocrites.
So, I believe the distinction made by the Supreme Court’s majority decision is that it happened after the game (when Kennedy is not in his official position as a public school coach) and was protected as “private speech”. I think the timing/role of Kennedy is the applicable component (and not necessarily the highly visible public location). If this had happened at a private location (i.e., maybe a game against a private school at their home field) but during a time when Kennedy was acting in an official role as a coach, then would the decision be different?
Anything's possible, but he only mentions Cristians, Jews and Muslims. It would really go a long way if he even mentioned students who don't follow any faith.
The original intent of the separation of church and state was to prevent a Church of England situation where other branches of Christianity were not tolerated. It was not to stamp out religion entirely from the public square (though, admittedly, the founders mostly were theists rather than practicing Christians and did envision a secular society that nonetheless respected and protected religious rights).
I’m sure within five years our military will have those guys on aircraft carriers who direct the planes waving glow-in-the-dark penises as we prepare to get blown up in Taiwan.
Yes, that’s bound to happen. I wonder how far we would be as a country if during D-Day our planes would have dropped in an army of trans, and as you say, glow in the dark penises.
I am an Orthodox Jew and a conservative. I have worn the US Army uniform and my father jumped into France on June 6, 1945. I believe with all my heart in the Constitution and the exceptionalism of America. However, I have also been the only Jew on a high school team lead by a wonderful coach who led prayers in which I could not participate. There are nuances here that I think are not appreciated by those who have never experienced being the minority. It is a fundamental right to practice religion - any religion - in the United States and thank God it is. But a charismatic, respected coach of high school students has an additional layer of responsibility. Yes - no student was “coerced” into participating. I experienced no coercion on my high school team to participate in prayer. But I also got to experience what it was like to be the only person who DIDN’T participate. I experienced the comments and looks from my fellow students who, after their prayer, felt I was somehow deserving of rebuke and approbation for not being a Christian. A leader with resounding loyalty and absolute power has a burden to consider additional perspectives then simply what s/he should be allowed to do as an individual, especially a leader of children and adolescents. Much of the US system is in place to protect the rights of those in the minority. I have lived that minority experience and I wish others would try to put themselves in that place.
Your story reminds me of when I had my son in a private, non denominational middle school. The music teacher put on a holiday singing program. Most of the songs were Christian or secular, but there was one Jewish one too. The Christians kids had no problem singing the Hannukah song. But the Mom of a Jewish kid complained to the teacher about her son having to sing Christian songs. The teacher told her, that’s the program, and if Aaron doesn’t want to sing those songs, he can drop out of the event. Sometimes, it’s not all about you.
The large public high school that I attended in the distant suburbs of NYC had some marvelous traditions as part of the annual Christmas concert. Alumni were invited to join the band in playing Leroy Anderson's "Christmas Festival", and to join the chorus in singing "The Messiah". I did both - including standing and singing next to my mom in the alumni Chorus. The huge high school auditorium was always packed, and the concert enjoyed huge support from almost everyone in the community. Almost everyone...
Then, due to the threat of lawsuits, things changed. First, the Christmas concert became the "Holiday Concert", that included a mix of songs. That wasn't good enough. The concert evolved further and became the "Winter Concert", and it included one or two holiday-related songs. That still wasn't good enough, so the playing/singing of any holiday music was banned. But that still didn't satisfy the critics because of the timing, so the Winter Concert was moved to late-January.
Many years later I had an opportunity to attend a Winter Concert at my old high school when I happened to be traveling in the area on business. The band and chorus played and sang beautifully - in the same huge school auditorium where I had performed 40 years earlier. The difference was that it was only about 1/3 full, and there was nowhere near the "buzz" and excitement that I had experienced in my high school days. How sad.
An explicit goal of cultural Marxism is to kill all of these traditions - religious or not - that bind communities and families. Small and lonely people without tradition are far easier to control.
This is what is happening in Christian churches also. Those that water down the gospel and are not bible based are dying out. Those that stay true to the word, are flourishing.
I am an atheist who celebrates Christmas. I love the music, specifically the religious music because it’s so beautiful, I love the goodwill towards my fellow humans, I love the lights and spending time with friends and family...
I don't think he's saying it's 'all about him". He's not saying others shouldn't or can't have programs suited to the majority either. His point is, coaches and those in positions of power and influence ought to be aware of their effect on others who don't follow them. It's just a more nuanced take. Why is that so bad?
Your example isn't even close to being the same as his.
In my story it was the Jewish mom harrassing the teacher, trying to change the whole singing program so one kid would be “comfortable” . But the teacher politely told her her son didn’t have to participate if he didn’t like it. He wasn’t coerced to join, but everyone else wasn’t going to change for him either.
I think her point is, nearly everyone can find a time in their life when they felt like an outsider, it's part of being human. Perhaps what's important is not how we are treated, but how we react to that treatment.
Argumentum ad hominem? Really? It’s sad that you resort to labeling an observation and perspective as victimhood because it does not conform to your view of the world.
Not at all, and I would never condone belittling someone for their lack of athletic ability or religious beliefs. Both are wrong. But so is conflating the two. I'm not saying that's what you're doing, but it's probably worth thinking about.
Could we find out more about your situation? How did the other athletes know you didn’t pray? Did you stand up while they kneeled? Did you leave? Just trying to get the picture.
At the invitation of the coach, the team would move to the side of the pool and kneel in prayer. I would stay on the bench, a small distance away being in a pool. The coach would know I would be doing this and would not make a big deal out of it. But my fellow students certainly did.
I don’t think so (although, at 14, I don’t know if I would have had the maturity to do anything differently). The issue is that, like all people who take religion seriously, for Jews the specific words really matter. I have no problem praying with non-Jews (and do so with my patients before surgery all the time). But when it ends with “in Jesus’ name we pray” or something like that, it’s a major problem for me. I simply cannot join or even appear to be joining in. I can’t just stand quietly (and we don’t kneel at all). So . . . probably not.
So I don’t know the song list, but it depends on the amount of theology. A lot of Christmas songs contain elements of theology, while a lot of Hannuka songs in English are innocuously about candles and dreidels.
Rudolph the red nose rain deer is fine. Oh Come Ye Faithful is not ok for a Jewish child to sing. So he can opt out of the event or he can just be silent for that song. Either way shouldn’t be a problem for the school if one kid doesn’t sing a song or two.
And yeah being a minority is uncomfortable. I think in this case the coach has a responsibility to identify and address that other teammates are being disrespectful of someone who doesn’t participate, since it can ruin on-field play.
I’m Jewish, too, and in my opinion that coach had every right to pray in public. If only more people were observant enough to pray. What’s the harm? Suck it up.
Perhaps you didn’t read my post fully. He has a right to pray in public. But as an authority figure it is disingenuous to think that the students didn’t feel pressure just because they were not overtly “coerced.” If someone experienced discrimination, pressure and/or harassment (as I did), would that not factor into the situation? Or is this another case of individual “rights” trumping any other consideration? (That sounds a lot like what conservatives are currently fighting.)
Unfortunately, your comment reflects a fundamental lack of understanding of my religion. My point is to put yourself in someone else’s place, not to just assume that your situation is universal.
Some conundra have no easy answer; many have no (good) answer at all. (Say! Maybe that's why we call them counundra!) Permit me to ask: Is there any limit to which one must self-censor to avoid rubbing against sensibilities of which one may or may not be aware?
Much is being made about feeling pressured or coerced. You weren’t being pressured to participate in a crime. It was just a moment of praying. So, go, stand there, be polite. Pray to your God if you want to, or don’t. Daydream. It’s like Christian kids singing the Hannukah song at the holiday program. So what?
Haven’t you ever felt excluded? As a teenager especially, that’s very painful. It’s insensitive to pretend as though the poster’s feelings are unimportant.
Having said that, I think the coach in this story did the right thing, so my response to you is not about disagreeing with his actions.
I don’t think the OP was arguing against public prayer. He was just giving his personal experience of the downside of that. The coach in his case should have been more mindful of his situation. I’m sure it wasn’t a secret that he is an Orthodox Jew
Suppose I wasn’t accepted into a sorority. Should I spend the rest of my life feeling agrieved because a few girls didn’t think I was pretty enough to be in their clique? Please.
Maureen, being excluded from a sorority, with all due respect, is not equivalent to being an Orthodox Jew in a Christian society. I think the poster was just looking for some understanding as the outsider.
You make all good points and I respect your opinion. And still my response to your argument is- so what? Life is a series of choices. They’re not always comfortable.
This is exactly what I’ve been saying. Maybe he’s within his rights. And maybe prayer is harmless. The issue here is religious freedom, and I would argue these kids aren’t experiencing it. They are being socially pressured to participate in religion.
But you give the game a way with “maybe he is within his rights.” No. He is 100% completely within his rights. It is the black letter law of the land.
You either have such a crippling case of FOMO you can’t encounter a person minding their own business without seeing it as ostracism or you’re a bigot whose delicate eyes can’t be sullied by any evidence of religion. I’m guessing it’s bigotry.
Haha. Wow, you literally don’t know anything about me or my relationship with religion, but sounds like you’ve got it all figured out. You seem delightful. Enjoy your angry life.
I get it that a person might not want to take part in a prayer to a strange God or a king or a queen or something like that; but it does seem curious that a person would reject a prayer to their own God. Why is it important to reject a prayer like that?
I think you’re overthinking this. Maybe try asking those boys if they care whether the man is praying for them. Likely most of them will express indifference or appreciation.
Yes, I'm afraid so. In the case of anthem-kneelers, it is the one who doesn't kneel, but stands with hand patriotically on heart, who deserves our praise and admiration, not the cowards spitting on their own country to score points with the woke mob.
Slippery slope, William. Sometimes life isn't fair and feelings are hurt. But, as you concede, the coach had the right to pray. Not all Christians are alike either. Was the coach Catholic? A born again Baptist? As long as you're not coerced, that's all we can ask for in society. The alternative of banning and control by government is far worse. You say the coach was a wonderful guy. Did you express your feelings to him? Did your teammates ostracize you?
No, but it was not his fault. As anyone who has been in high school knows, much goes on without teachers/coaches knowing. He was doing what he believed to be right and, at the time, there was little discussion around these topics. He’s a wonderful human being and probably the most influential in my life after my parents. I recently had the opportunity to tell him that. Many years later, he also had the opportunity to see the situation from my perspective and completely understood.
You sound like a very decent, forgiving guy. Thanks for engaging so openly. I understand your feelings and sympathize with anyone who feels excluded. I just disagree that we can mandate that nobody's feelings get hurt. I don't dispute that societal pressures exist and can be painful. But I think we need to draw the line at that which is actually mandated by government and its instrumentalities and that which is simply believed to been societally coercive.
I would agree with you on most things. But not children/adolescents and situations like high school with inordinate amounts of influence from teachers/coaches. Isn’t that what we battle against with the current school board issues? I don’t want the mostly Christian society of the US to conform to my needs. I’ve spent my life figuring out how to accommodate. HOWEVER, I don’t think high school students should have to be thrown into the fray without some extra consideration.
Very well said, William. As someone who was once one of 2 Jewish children in an entire school back before school prayer was ruled unconstitutional, I clearly remember the feelings you describe. Many of the other comments miss the point that separation of church and state is also part of the First Amendment and must be considered along with free exercise of religion and free speech.
“Many of the other comments miss the point that separation of church and state is also part of the First Amendment”
I’m not sure what your point is but the Supreme Court ruled that the coach and his players engaged in a constitutionally protected activity. Are you siding with the opponents who deprived them of that Right? Is it ok with you that someone’s hurt feelings or antipathy to religious expression trumps the constitution?
“I…felt I was somehow deserving of rebuke and approbation for not being a Christian”
Could it be that the prayer sessions the coach and players engaged in were more about fellowship than religion? I wonder if there were any Jews or Muslims that chose to participate for that very reason. My guess is that if any did want to participate, they would not have been excluded whether they chose to pray Christ, God, or Allah. You chose not to do either. That says more about you than Christians, your coach, or your teammates.
Not a very nice comment. He was a teenager at the time and felt excluded. I support the coach’s right to pray, but you’re just being unkind. Compassion goes a long way.
“He was a teenager at the time and felt excluded”.
If you know one teenager that didn’t feel excluded one time or another tell them to buy a lottery ticket because they’re luckier than me or anyone I know. At the end of the day, I’d rather be called mean than whiney.
I'm still trying to figure out YOUR point. Your teammates chose to be Christians and express their religious beliefs. You chose to be an Orthodox Jew and eschew their expression of that belief. You say you were subjected to “comments and looks from my fellow students after their prayer”, and they felt that you were “somehow deserving of rebuke and approbation for not being a Christian”. What exactly were you looking for, approbation for being an Orthodox Jew? Self censorship on your teammates part?
I get you’re in a minority, but then you choose to be. And as you say, “much of the US system is in place to protect the rights of those in the minority”. It wasn’t always like that. In fact, there was a time when being in a religious minority got you nailed to a cross. In the grand scheme of things, suffering “looks and comments” in order to practice your religion seems like a small price to pay
William, You make a very good point. Being the outsider, feeling excluded - we’ve all been there in one situation or another, and it’s very difficult, especially for a teenager. Is there something the coach could have done to bring you into the fold? God is the same God to everyone, so if he’s wasn’t praying specifically to Jesus, would you have felt comfortable participating?
That’s a very interesting question. It probably would have worked for me (although there are nuances). However, having spent my entire life living as a minority in a Christian society, I’m sensitive to the fact, as someone critical of my comment put it, that “it’s not all about me.” I wish everyone would have that attitude. It’s not about me and my understanding or practices. I’m not a Muslim nor a Hindu nor an atheist and I don’t pretend to speak for or even understand all of their issues. If that man were kneeling on a sidewalk, praying to Jesus, I would ardently defend his right to do so. However, I believe one of the genius ideas of our Founders was that the minority needs to be protected. As is evident by some of the comments here, sometimes people in the majority have a difficult time even understanding there may be a different perspective.
I think that human to human, most people, even the posters pushing against your original post, understand your sentiments. It’s that there has been such a pivot in American society against public prayer, especially Christian public prayer (Christianity being the religion of the “oppressive, white patriarchy”) that people with right leanings have a knee-jerk reaction against anyone who appears to be in the anti-public prayer camp.
Your point is the only reason I felt compelled to write this post. I actually AGREE with most (all?) of the backlash against traditional values and often use that ironic phrase as satire. But, sometimes, the majority needs to realize that there is some heterogeneity that needs to be considered or at least an attempt at understanding. I grew up in a community almost entirely Christian, almost all of whom were wonderful, tolerant and kind people. But even the best of them could sometimes forget that not everything could be seen through one specific lens. My only point.
When I was pastoring a UCC church years ago, I always made it VERY clear that Jesus was born AND died an Orthodox Jew. Ergo, if you professed a love of Jesus it was impossible to be an anti=Semite.
Indeed, the prayer that Jesus taught his disciples which is now perhaps mistakenly known as The Lord's prayer is a prayer taught by an Orthodox Jew to Orthodox jews that any Jew can pray with no trepidation that they are in a minority . If anyone feels they can't join in a prayer on the 50 yard line in line with their own tradition, , it may be that prayer is not an important part of their life - not the fear that they will be met with rebuke and approbation. After all, who knows what is being said by the coach - i know people who consider prayer to be a cry for help in finding the right color for a refrigerator.
. - Jesus during his ministry and at the time of his death, was not a Christian. The term didn't start to be used for years after his death. People were known as Followers of Jesus. Indeed, one needs to study the rise of Christianity years after Jesus was crucified BY THE ROMANS to understand the very complicated situation that the apostle Paul - himself an Orthodox Jew - and the persecuted Jesus community faced and why in the 300s Contantine made it the religiion of the empire.
I am a Christian because I was raised in the church AND because I follow the teachings of Jesus which are pretty similar to the teachings of the Hebrew prophets. Please let both sides - Jews and CHristians alike - stop separating us from our common heritage. Indeed, the Hebrew scriptures are even more beloved than the Christian scriptures. Kids know the story of Jonah and the Whale but few can exigete the letter to the Romans.
Thanks for your service William. Is it possible that you can kneel and pay respect to the God of your choice, (or for those who don’t believe in any God... to the memory of those who died for our current “freedom”) and not disrespect anyone, but just be both grateful and pious?
You pose an understandable question. I am very grateful for the multitude of blessings in my life and for the world we have been given in general. I try to be pious (although with limited success). But - no - I cannot kneel in prayer. My observation of those who have never experienced anything but living in the majority (ie, in this case, Christians in the US) is sometimes things that appear to be absolutely generalizable are not. “Prayer is prayer and why can’t we all pray together.” But Judaism is different (as are most religious I believe) and has it’s own set of rules, customs and practices. I frequently encounter questions that begin with “Can’t you just . . .” because people assume it’s no big deal and don’t we all do it that way. But that’s just not true. Kneeling for me would be a great sin. Even within Judaism, that isn’t true for Christians, but it is true for me as a Jew. Judaism has MANY rules (more than you can even imagine). I know that seems strange to many people, but we Jews find beauty and devotion there - just as devout people around the world find with their own religions. I’m not asking anyone to conform to anything for my religious practices. But I do ask that people approach it with the assumption that they don’t know and maybe even with a little sensitivity.
I think this is changing and people are more understanding, but it does takes time. Once I was flying to FLA and a rabi did a quick prayer in the airplane before we took off. I am not Jewish but I was glad that someone was asking for a divine protection, no issues for me. I grew up in a country that was 90% Catholic and now it is 45%, but never in my mind occurred to be hostil against other religions.
But that leaves the majority without a position or at least the ability to express themselves publicly for fear of offfending a minority. We are seeing that play out large scale at this point in time. I used to wonder how in Saddam Hussein's Iraq the minority Sunni controlled the majority Shia. I understand now. If you are a minority that by definition means you are different than the majority. I do not see that as a bad thing necessarily.
This case once again proves that public school administrators and its lawyers have to be the most willfully ill informed group of “educated” people in America.
They constantly and consistently take positions in clear violation of the bill of rights and quite well settled legal principles against liberty.
Last week some school district tossed as middle school kid out of school for a dont tread on me back pack claiming it could supress his freedom of expression to avoid the appearance of supporting unpopular political movements ( they claimed the Gadsen flag was also used by “right wing subversive organizations.
The fact is they ( administrators) are intolerant and ignorant of the law and use the power they have to suppress speech they disagree with . That is terrifying and bodes badly for the future.
I am not sure why people get so upset when other people want to have a moment of silent gratitude. No coercion, no hype, just gratitude. And yet some have this knee jerk response to silence those who they don’t agree with. Mind boggling.
Nothing is more dangerous to the authoritarian than someone recognizing they are not the highest power in the universe. Because if you believe that, it may lead you to realize that they are clueless dummies who don't have the intelligence to run a fruit and vegetable stand at the local farmers market, much less to try and tell you how to organize your life.
This is why they view religion as a threat to their power. And it is. And it's good.
Check out my conversion to the church of Robin DiAngelo-
Prayer in view of impressionable young people? OMG!!! Boys in girls' locker rooms? No problem there!
The religion of the left leaning educators is, quite simply, LEFTISM! But because the Leftists' Temple of Worship is the halls of academe it is not regarded as a religion itself, but it clearly IS.
“noted that even though both men were kneeling, Kaepernick’s actions were seen as a more acceptable expression of the First Amendment than Kennedy’s”
———————————————————
For f*** sake what is with this retarded comparison because they were both kneeling?? Kaepernick was kneeling DURING THE NATIONAL ANTHEM AS A SIGN OF DISRESPECT. It isn’t even remotely similar.
Derek Chauvin was kneeling. Is it also kinda like Derek Chauvin and we should compare them because knees were involved??
Yes this was a pretty lame attempt at moral equivalency. Kaepernick is no hero. Joe Kennedy is a Marine, serving in the Corps for 20 years. I'd call him a hero.
That may be true-ish today, it wasn't that long ago that some Republicans/Christians had no problems trying to force people to think and act like they wanted them to. And some of those folks probably still would today is they were holding reigns again.
'True-ish'? What an awful, weak statement. Not that long ago?
You couldn't be more wrong, and of course offer no proof of a ridiculous comment.
Only 3 years ago a Republican held the reign in the WH.
Today they hold reign in the House of Representatives, and in districts all over America. Who and where are they forcing people to "think and act like they wanted them to"?
Meanwhile you force your sanctimonious ideology all the way to outlawing ceiling fans!!
Why don't you imbeciles find something worth fighting for, besides Orange Man Bad?
Watch your knee there buddy, its jerking all over the place. I voted for Trump. But regardless of that, I am guessing my actual views couldn't fit nicely on whatever graph you have in your head.
I was referring to the 80's when the moral majority was trying to censor all kinds of things. Religious groups using their clout to shut down businesses that didn't cater to what the groups believed was right. And if you want more recent examples, you can look at abortion laws all over the country.
My overall, poorly made point was that power corrupts. When some group gets in charge, they tend to try to force their views on others. I guess my point was also how we tend not to see when out side is doing the same kinds of things that we hate in others.
Yeah, I didn’t get that part, either. What’s the rationale? Assuming there is one and it’s not just an arbitrary grasping for power. “OK, he can pray, but you can’t get near him. So there.”
Didn't you know that 25 ft is the scientifically proven area of influence for a given prayer? It is just like 6 ft distancing for COVID. You don't want any prayer droplets landing on innocent kids 😆
People talk all the time about the growing secularization in America... yet wins like this show that faith and belief in God still occupy a major part of the public square. America is still a deeply religious nation at our core, and always will be.
America is partially becoming secular and this trend is exaggerated as policymakers are secular in larger numbers. But there is a thriving growth in religion from Muslims and Hindus. We are becoming less christian but we are still religious.
"America is still a deeply religious nation at our core, and always will be."
That's really just hyperbole. There are Americans who are religious, and Americans who are not. Unlike "gender" which is "fluid", Americans seem pretty set in either/or and very binary when it comes to religion. Those who aren't religious are not just being anti-religious on the facade and deeply religious at their cores. They hate religion.
That's not to say an individual person cannot somehow hear the call and or be touched by God and convert. But there's just no "core".
Religion does not just mean Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, etc. Religion refers to any belief system that requires one to have faith in something divine or supernatural. Wokeism, gender ideology, astrology, New Age spirituality, etc. are all religions or religious beliefs. Many of the people who hate religion are just practicing their own form of religion, whether they know it or not.
The irony is the atheistic Left is trying to attract in lots and lots of "brown and black" people from Latin America and Africa, somewhat forgetting that most of these folks are way more religious than the average American. Christians from Africa are quite devout, as are Muslims from that region. Most of Latin America is devout Catholics and are bringing their faith and practices with them.
This whole import-immigrants-to-vote-Democratic is going to backfire big time, methinks.
Well I don't disagree with you that Wokeism, gender ideology, astrology, New Age spirituality but I think you do need to specify that because in USA anyway, discussion of religion is really a code word for Christianity. The Left doesn't actually think anything else is "religion". And for Islam, Buddhism, etc, they don't really see those as religions. They see those as "oh how cute, those little marginalized inferior people have their own cultures. Let's pretend we give a shit by "respecting" to virtue signal what great, open-minded, tolerant people we are.".
As someone who is currently in graduate school for religious studies, these are issues I think about a lot. It is true that the word “religion” in America has historically referred to Protestant Christianity.
In fact, wokeism is essentially an offshoot of certain Protestant denominations. Puritans, Quakers, Anabaptists, and other denominations in the northern colonies all eventually became absorbed into what is now called Unitarianism, and woke ideology stems much from certain Unitarian teachings that basically influenced much of educated culture in New England.
And yes, the left often has the patronizing tone toward non-white people and beliefs. It’s clear that they don’t see Muslims as having real beliefs, which is why all the liberal white people were shocked when Muslim parents came to protest gender ideology being taught in schools. And why liberals always say Christianity is patriarchal but avoid discussing patriarchy in Islam. And why liberal white people like black churches and black pastors even when saying they hate Christians.
God forbid we have a leader of young men in this country that leads by humility, determination and faith in front of his students. This is probably the only interaction in many of these young kids lives where they get to see this. No one is forcing them to participate. Given all the negative landmines these young men have to try not to step on today (social media, porn, gender fluidity nonsense, drugs, the attack on masculinity), the idea that community leaders like Kennedy, that show faith & belief in something other than themselves, is viewed as a negative by some people is simply astonishing. Just sayin.....
What's amazing is that if I read that correctly, the person who ordered him to stop--ironically out of fear of lawsuits, apparently, which is to say out of FEAR--was a member of his church.
I'm not a Christian, but it is obvious to me that if you are not willing to defend your faith, and practice it when people tell you to stop, you aren't a Christian. Full Stop. The Bible, which I was raised reading, is very, very clear on that. That superintendant should either stop going to church--and perhaps the pastor should stop preaching--or they should admit they failed their faith and atone for it by not being effing cowards in the future.
The First Amendment is clear, as is its history, as is the common sense behind it. You will neither be forced to participate IN religion, or in any way constrained from practicing your religion. You won't be forced to join a church, and you will not be forced out of a church. You do you, in public, but you can't force anyone to join you.
People voluntarily praying in public are obviously free to do so. The line is only crossed if participation becomes a requirement to play, and people are required to be there. That was not the case here.
If you cannot express what is in your heart at a given moment, you are not free. And if you cannot speak your truth, you learn to lie; and that is why our media and public lives have become saturated with obvious and ridiculous lies.
This display of cowardice by Christian clergy and "leadership" was on full display nationwide in spring 2020. The capitulation to the Covid lockdown of churches will continue to exact its price on church attendance for years to come.
Not only churches also in synagogues. The only faith that seems to be strong is Islam. There mosques have almost full attendance on Fridays, there communities are strong and when they have to protest at something like gender mutilation in schools they come out in droves. It’s really nice to see the support they give each other in their communities.
I am not the least bit religious but I am not anti-religious. Religion gives comfort and solace to billions of people worldwide. I go to church to please my wife. I may not be religious but I am not crazy.
I will support moderate religions and overt acts of religion but I won't support religious fanatics who try and force their particular faith on other people. I will not support a religion that denigrates and stones women and beheads women or homosexuals, cuts off peoples' hands or tortures to death people of other faiths like ISIS does.
As far as the coach praying on the football field, to me it falls under, who cares. He's demonstrating his faith. So what! He's not forcing it on me or others. If you ban him, what next? Are you going to ban the Baptist from paying for billboard saying, "Come to First Baptist for the Peace and Comfort of Jesus Christ" or putting up a sign in front of the Church advertising the church's religious calendar of sermons?
The left hates Christianity but loves the Religion of Peace. Go figure!
With regards to your questions, there is a lot of case law decisions involving signage (Reed v Town of Gilbert comes to mind which I believe was a 9-0 Supreme Court decision). Generally content-based restrictions on signage (as in your examples above) would likely not hold up.
We are too serious here. we need to lighten up:
A refined and respectable lady went into the pharmacy, walked up to
the pharmacist, looked straight into his eyes and said, “I would like
to buy some cyanide.”
The pharmacist asked, “Why in the world do you need cyanide?”
The lady replied, “I need it to poison my husband.”
The pharmacist’s eyes got big, and he exclaimed, “Lord have mercy! I
can’t give you cyanide to kill your husband. Absolutely not! You
CANNOT have any cyanide!”
The lady reached into her purse and pulled out a picture of her
husband in bed with the pharmacist’s wife.
The pharmacist looked at the picture and said, “You didn’t tell me you
had a prescription.”
More please. Made my day...
God LP that was priceless 😂😂😂
TOO funny, Lonesome!
It's interesting that I have never read of a case of employers denying muslims the right to pray at specified times as required by their religion.
Muslims are a scary minority and implicitl BIPOC something something, so yes, the lunatics only harass people they know they can get away with bullying, which is mostly their ostensible friends and neighbors. The whole thing is cowardly, ugly and stupid.
Me neither!
Google it, I think you’ll find several examples…. It has and does continue to happen. Finding the balance, time to pray, time to work, is doable but sometimes employers need to be nudged in the right direction…
We are decadent. They are, for now, less decadent. I would argue, though, that decadence is a choice that becomes a habit. Like all choices, it can be changed and reversed, but it takes awareness and will to do that. When that will is finally gone, then nothing will save that nation or people; and perhaps that is how it should be. Nothing last forever, at least in this reality.
Right Skinny and BigE. Our synagogue did not open for in person services until late 2022, and that was limited, with masks and social distancing and a cap on the number of people. Almost THREE years after the initial shut down, they opened up for business as usual!! But guess what, new habits were formed (watching from home in pj's) and now they bombard us with messages of the importance of face to face and community. Too little, too late as far as I'm concerned, I'm so pi**ed about it.
Yes. A church near Santa Cruz refused to buckle under and stayed open for congregational worship, subjecting itself to fines by local officials. The main source of reporting this church’s “violations” to the authorities was the mainstream Protestant church next door, which had allowed itself to be shut.
The Churches have been infiltrated by communists. Some say even the Pope is communist, or communist- adjacent.
There are communist priests. The pope is pretty left wing.
I don't see how that squares with Frankie being more than a little chummie and comfortable with the Junta that disappeared lefties and chucked folk from helicopters; but whatever. The Pope is a criminal six ways 'til Tuesday whatever way you look at it. It is a pity you can only kill someone once.
My Catholic Church was open. We met in the parking lot.
My synagogue did not have in person services for THREE years! My Catholic friend went to mass for all but the first six weeks of shut down. It was eye opening to me, and I'm still pi**ed at the leadership at my synagogue.
Many mainstream Christian churches remained closed for way too long during the pandemic. I suspect that the leadership of these denominations were falling in line with the government's fearmongering, even though many people in their congregations were able to make an intelligent risk assessment for themselves. In fact, it became a symbol of partisanship, which reinforced their mutual decisions. "Science" became the whipping boy, and it hasn't recovered to this day.
I would add that Tim Tebow was also taking knees before Colin Kaepernick, and he was told he could not do that. No principle was involved, obviously: it was the naked exercise of power in support of prejudice.
Excellent point. Tebow was ridiculed and ostracized. And he’s definitely a better man than that idiot bible versed tatted Colin who did it out of pique egged on by his Muslim girlfriend.
Barry, I second your excellent point about the hypocrisy of responses between Kapernick and Tebow’s actions. Same physical demonstration but polar opposite meaning. One (Tebow) was vilified and TOLD TO STOP BY THE NFL, and one (Kapernick) was ALLOWED TO CONTINUE BY THE NFL and signed to lucrative corporate endorsements. My interest in football, which had already been waning because of the way they were handling concussions and CTE, went to zero. These actions by the NFL for me were the beginnings of what are now referred to as “woke” corporate speak/virtue signaling.
Apparently it is OK to be anti-American and kneel but not OK to be religious and kneel.
God Bless the Democrats and their insane left wing fanatical loons.
I've given up on the NFL as well. It's also patently corrupt. The post season last year was simply ludicrous. They don't even seem to be trying to hide it any more.
As a kid I was a fan by any definition. I stopped watching NFL when the wokesters forced my beloved Redskins to change their name (over the objections of blacks and actual native Americans I might add!) to the WTF. That was the last straw.
I stopped watching. My kids don’t watch. Their kids won’t watch. It’s over.
It's just one more item in a long list of things hysterical lunatics have ruined.
Although football has been ruined for me twice, once by the hysterical lunatics, and once by the Mafia that seems to run this country and control the NFL.
'People voluntarily praying in public are obviously free to do so. The line is only crossed if participation becomes a requirement to play, and people are required to be there. That was not the case here.'
I see your point. It's great in theory - but. I'm not sure how old his players were. Let's say they were twelve to fourteen years old. They're kids. They want to make the team. They want to impress their coach. They want to continue to play. They're impressionable, obviously. Who's to say that the coach's propensity to pray publicly wasn't latched on to by his young charges as a way to curry favour? And once a lot of the youngsters joined, peer pressure brought others on board.
I went to Catholic school as a youngster. Mass was mandatory every Friday. It took every fiber of my being to finally say no, I was not going to attend any more. I was thirteen years old. I was shunned for weeks by teachers and many pupils - but I was allowed to skip Mass until I transferred out of that school. There were many other kids I knew who hated Mass and everything spoken about within, but felt compelled to go.
Could that possibly be the case here?
The very same argument could be made about students attending blm protests or wearing political t shirts and badges. They may feel pressured to agree with their teachers’ politics. And peer pressure always factors in at that age.
Is it any different with the transgender nonsense? If you sent your kids to a hippy school today, no doubt they would wind up gender confused in short order. That is why parents need to be involved in parenting.
You have to admit that Catholic Schools are well within their rights to demand kids attend Mass. It's a private school, and your parents presumably spent good money for you to go there, knowing that explicit and regular exposure to Christianity would be part of the curriculum.
Obviously, in any social system there is pressure to conform, but in this particular case there appears to have been none; and in any event, if nothing is being forced, then that is meaningful freedom. And if the kids are younger, then the parents need to weigh in. This is something to be negotiated by people affected, not something government needs to be involved in, in any way, shape or form.
50 years ago this simply would not and could not have been a problem. Prayer at sporting events is as old as sports.
I did not say government needs to be involved. And I did not say that parents should not be involved. Mine allowed me to do what I thought was best.
And how do you know really that there was not pressure to conform here? Were any of the kids asked later if they felt that they should go along with everybody else? I don't know. Perhaps you do.
Interesting juxtaposition you make about a kid not wanting to follow religious instruction - ie dogma - and that of kids being allowed to short circuit their bodies because they're (terribly) misguided as to what gender they belong to. One example pertains to having an open mind on the part of the child, and the other belongs to authorities caving in to the misguided sensitivities of a new found curriculum and medical guidance - ie a closed mind on the part of the adults minding the kids - who as I said before, are highly impressionable at that age.
I personally find it curious that apparently all of this coach's kids 'found the light' and thought praying to God was the next best thing.
I wonder how many of those still pray.
But it doesn’t say that every kid chose to join the coach in prayer. Also, what was the incentive for kids from the opposing team who also joined in? You’re trying hard to make a point about peer pressure here, which is funny, because peer pressure manifests in so many ways in school. I hope you bring the same energy to the negative ones as you do in worrying about whether kids felt pressed to prayerfully express gratitude. Lol. You have all these reservations about what was *really* in the hearts of these kids, but how is that our business? Prayer is powerful. Gratitude is life changing. I have no problem believing these kids felt uplifted when participating with their brothers in a shared spiritual humility and gratitude. You should try it! No pressure. ;)
Also the whole point is that the coach stuck to his principles. He was not rewarded by his employer and community or upheld as a leader to emulate; he was blatantly discriminated against and fired, but he stayed the course. Kids probably learned more of value from that than anything else in public high school.
I guess I'm just more cynical than you. Peer pressure is terrible however it's manifested, that is true. Social media, of course, exacerbates that. But just because this involves Christian religious prayer does not mean children didn't feel the need to follow the leader in order to feel accepted.
And, as I wrote earlier, I did try it when young. And I walked away..
Part of growing up is dealing with the pressure to conform. And it comes from every direction. Think of all the cliques in school. Whether it is the teachers getting you to conform to their standards, the cheerleaders, the jocks, nerds or the stoners; if you want to hang around you damn well better conform. Don't conform and there is a lack of trust that you truly are part of the group. The problem displayed here in the church and the one in San Jose (Calvary Chapel) is that the members have conformed to the world rather than the faith. Granted, there is a whole pandora's box you can explore there, but I would say in our area the churches that resisted the encroachment of the government in 2020 are growing and those that embraced woke ideology are not. There is something about freedom that simply enhances growth.
Sounds like you carry baggage from your youthful experience. Which colors your speculation about this coach's young players.
Not baggage, Lynne. Life experience. I find it slightly hard to believe that all the kids playing under this guy quickly got converted into praying out in the open, simply because he somehow showed them that the way forward in life was to pray. That's quite a religious contagion, if you ask me. I can't help but think the quite a few of those kids were smarter than their coach, and went along with it all to make sure they played.
I stand by my comment. I used the term baggage because it seems to me your life experience left a bad taste in your mouth that colors your perception of religion to this day. So much for open-mindedness.
Perhaps the word baggage should be replaced with wisdom. My wisdom would be different from yours, real world personal travels do that to people - but the open mindedness you accuse me of not possessing allows me to read your articulate comments, your wisdom as it were, with the open mind it deserves. I will not convince you, nor you me, but discuss we do.
Open minds do that.
If so, what harm was done? If you have a chip on your shoulder from your "life experience" that does not apply to most of us.
Harm?
Because my gut tells me the coach knew his young charges would follow him. (And those of the other team). And that he would create the public parade he sought.
I guess I just have a cynical view of human nature. And if you don’t, then good for you.
Does an assistant coach have that much say about which players can play?
If I read the article correctly, he is now an assistant coach. But at the time he was the head coach. I stand corrected, if I'm wrong..
I taught in public schools and a private Christian school. I don't think that was the case here, that would have been just cause to fire the coach. He just did it and some kids wanted to join him. Best guess for any "requirement to pray" would be internal, wanting to be with their friends praying on the field
Thank you for bringing some rationality to this discussion.
Being a member of a church doesn't necessarily mean much. The church I grew up in had tons of great people...but it also had a few people who, outside of church, were selfish greedy people. I don't know where this superintendent's faith lies, and it doesn't really matter. As the Coach said, this was really about Rights. And that Super was more concerned with political fallout than trying to uphold someone's rights.
It's not just rights, but honest faith in the Christian gospel. You can believe in God and you can believe in Government, but you have to prioritize, and if you TRULY believe in God, there is only one acceptable sequence.
And keep in mind, the superintendant was not even responding to complaints, but to POSSIBLE complaints. It's like people who get offended on behalf of other people who are not even there. The superintendent is obviously lacking fully in judgement, honest faith in Jesus, and basic common sense and guts.
The superintendent was following the LAW that had prevailed at the time.
The superintendent's fear overcame his faith. Too bad, but, today I'm sure he regrets that decision, much like churches regret the decision to close during the pandemic. I'm willing to guess that given a do-over the superintendent would choose differently, I know churches would "do" the pandemic differently, most say they will never close again. The superintendent and the pastor both deserve forgiveness and grace.
I hope you are right. Forgiveness is always available, but only for those who truly realize the error of their ways and repent.
I have always thought that some of the most strident devotees are that way because they need saving the most. Sort of like some reformed alcoholics or smokers.
Cowards. Pastors, schools superintendent, current coaching staff... cowards. Great job coach. Too bad he settled for less than $5.5 million. AND he lost money in this ordeal. Gotta sue these bastards... ESPECIALLY governments.
Neither the coach nor the superintendent did anything wrong or failed their faiths. Each had a position to protect, each acted accordingly, and the Supreme Court sorted it out. The system worked as it was supposed to.
In a society functioning as a truly liberal social order, the Supreme Court would not have been involved at all. This guy had a lot of years of frustration and emotional pain as a result of something that should have been obviously allowed as a matter of common sense and common decency. That is obvious to me. How is it not obvious to you?
Yip as clear as daylight god knows why the Supreme Court would even take this on.
In a perfect world, we wouldn’t need courts and lawsuits. It’s not a perfect world. Here, two rights clashed. The system solved it, which is why I said it worked.
So if I sued you for saying that, and after ten years and millions of dollars of your own and donated money defending yourself my lawsuit was thrown out you would call that a success of "The System"? That is the logic. I just want to make it clear, so as to give you a chance to backtrack if you choose to.
Why on earth would I backtrack? What I said is true: in the specific case of Coach vs. School, the system worked as intended. I can't speak to your hypotheticals.
Sure they did something wrong. That's why they lost. And IMO they are continuing to do so with the 25 ft. prohibition. They are actually violating the rights of anyone else who wants to join.
Agree completely about the 25-foot rule---school system should have been graceful about it and said, "Awright, Coach, you won fair and square, have at it." But institutions don't give in very easily.
Disagree about doing something wrong. Both views had merit until SCOTUS said otherwise. This had to go through the court system to see who won the blue ribbon, and it did.
Well that rational applies to former President Trump's legal woes too. ;)
Of course. Seriously, he IS innocent until proven guilty, or should be. Just because I don't like the guy doesn't mean he should be jobbed in court.
Well said.
Really really well put Barry! Thank You! (And God Bless You!)
I bet Joe Biden prayed to save his Corvette from that kitchen fire.
I’m putting the comparison of this Kennedy guy to Kaepernick right up there with comparing 9/11 to Jan 6 and Joe Biden comparing his lighting strike to 1,000 people burning alive in Lahaina.
Another good one Kevin. But as odious as Kap is, he has the right to be so.
Yes but it was never an argument about rights it was an argument about how he was shitting on the country and NFL fans like the country so the NFL gets to fire him. People who like the country also have rights.
Marxists made it an argument about speech rights, which it wasn’t, because they are psychopaths and that’s what psychopaths do; they weaponize your ethics and morals against you.
None of this is easy. Does a store have the right to fire a person with garish tattoos and piercings or who wears blatantly political messages - either BLM or KKK insignia I think they do. And as you point out, the NFL is a business, not an arm of the government. So when the national anthem is played and someone exhibits blatant disrespect for it, should they be fired? Probably. But only because no government policy mandates that the anthem be played.
Just a minor correction - it should be OBLM for Only Black Lives Matter.
It clearly is a case that the rights of the left are much more protected than the rights of the right. Kap probably drove many away from the NFL, but I believe the gamblers have brought many back.
Many, many, many of the premiere college football players who go on to success in the NFL start as babies in Christian affiliated football camps. Many (most?) are in Florida.
I can’t protest at my job during the workday.
Kapernick could have used his fame to protest off the field.
Similarly I am not interested in celebs pov while watching a performing (say a singer) but off the clock is fine.
Why was he parking his corvette in the kitchen?
Because teen girls had gathered in the kitchen.
Oh my...I just totally laughed out loud. I'm trying to think of something clever and funny to add about ice cream also being involved but I'm at a loss.
Much like BLM Antifa riots, Joe Biden luring children to his van with ice cream does not result in the spread of COVID.
See, I knew you would think of something
To get to the other side?
He was thinking of having a cookout in the Corvette.
Oh Kevin, your hilarious! 🤣🤣
know who is absent. comp 2.0. LOL
He is, don’t have to watch any comedy show or SNL or TrevorcNish for that matter
My finger slipped before I finished I meant Trevor Noah for that matter - Kevin is the tonic on TFP!
There is an edit feature 🤨.
Thanks for info Brian, my finger was hovering over the post or cancel button and my eye was reading how badly I had written Trevor Noah, so I pushed post by mistake. Then I started looking for the delete button, couldn’t find that, so I corrected it all in the next post.
Wishing you a Shabbat shalom!
😂
In high school, peer pressure forces them to participate. The late George Carlin said it best: "Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time! But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more."
George Carlin was a bigot who wilfully misunderstood religion and spreads his hateful ignorance even to this day.
To the contrary: Carlin deeply understood the business side of religion and made appropriate fun of it. He wasn't a bigot, he was a genius.
Yes, my 80 year old pastor took a survival salary and spent his last years building small town infrastructure because he wanted to get rich off of religion. The "business" aspect.
Cherry picking the most negative examples of an institution and qualifying the entire institution as such is not genius, it's hate. Religion is a far bigger subject than the monetary aspects alone, and for most religious people there is little to no financial gain involved.
Cool that your pastor built small-town infrastructure. I mean that, I admire him for such a selfless thing. But you're cherry-picking religion with that story as much as you claim Carlin did with his. For every selfless pastor you have a televangelist and a sadistic principal of a church school designed to beat the Indian out of the child.
Carlin is a comedian. He cherry-picks the universe, makes jokes out of what he finds, and gets a laugh. Take it for what it is.
I told you what I think it is. I take it as willful ignorance of the purpose and substance of religion in favor of hypocritical bigoted ignorance spreading hatred as comedy.
What I did was raise examples that disprove his concept of religion and here are more:
Amazonian religious ceremonies existing before institutionalized money
Buddhist monks renouncing all wealth
Early Christian communal communities
Catholics monks living in poverty
Shinto honoring ancestors with no concept of financial gain
How many more "cherry picked" examples of non-financial religion do you need before you acknowledge that religion isn't defined by money, and you're actually just talking about a tiny, insignificant number of American con artists?
"For every selfless pastor you have a televangelist..."
No that ratio isn't remotely near one to one, it is more like a thousand to one - your claim is exactly the hateful ignorance I'm talking about.
But he was our bigot. God love him..
“The late George Carlin said it best” means that you regard his description of Christianity and Judaism as the “best” available. I would describe it as one of the worst available, because of the snarky ignorance it reveals and the hopelessness it foments.
I feel sorry for you. God loves you. God’s grace is very real, and it’s available for you - to make your life on earth better, even if belief in eternal salvation is a step too far. All you need do, is pray for God to shed His grace upon you. Open yourself to it. You have nothing to lose, and everything to gain.
God and Religion are two separate things. Carlin made sport of Religion, and appropriately so, given his era, filled with tidal waves of televangelists trying to separate you from your wallet so they could live as kings and queens.
Thanks for drawing the distinction.
You're welcome. Too many believe they're one and the same and Lordy :-) that isn't true.
His era was at the same time as The Jesus People depicted in the recent movie "Jesus Revolution". People pick and choose what they want to see and highlight. I find that most that want to ignore Christ's claim on their life only see the negative things done by "Christians", whether those folks are truly walking in allegiance to him or not is probably immaterial. Insert Jesus parable here of the wheat and the tares. But also, Christians screw up and do not represent Christ well at times. I know I'm not always the best rep.
A nice reply, Chris, thanks. That's why I made the distinction in another comment between God and Religion. God is run by, of course, God. Religion is a creation of humans and whether it will be perceived as good, bad, or indifferent depends entirely on the fallible humans who represent it. All religions have that issue, which is why I try to look past the bad parts to see what the good parts are.
But my (non-Christian) faith in God is strong enough to be able to laugh when Carlin does his riffs on religion. God thinks it's funny, why shouldn't I?
I agree that God and religion are not the same thing, and that some televangelists have given religion a bad name. But read Carlin again. He was also mocking a belief in God.
I'll take another look, Mark, thanks.
Belief in God makes your life on earth better? Perhaps you can mail that one to God loving families of people slain in Ukraine, to Russian soldiers' mothers, to the families of the incinerated in Maui. The list is too long of course, only a few millennia, but God knows..
It was AFTER THE GAME. whoever on the team wanted to joined in. They all didn’t.
Sounds like the vaccine push....
These peer pressure comments are so funny. How long has it been since you were in high school? Lol ... do you really think praying to God is a socially promoted or even accepted phenomenon in public schools? Did you miss the part where the coach was fired for it? In public high school today there is certainly a lot of pressure coming at teens, but it is not to kneel down and thank the Lord for their blessings, then humbly pray with and for their rivals. If only.
I realize this might come as a shock, but George Carlin was a comedian.
His schtick was talking about subjects that generated laughs because they were taboo and/or made people uncomfortable. Assuming he was a philosopher or driven to improve peoples lives had a higher priority than making people laugh might possibly, could be, something of a mistake. But hey, if you want to take life advice from a comedian have at it.
Would love to see George Carlin generate laughs about taboo subjects such as Pride Month and the whole trans train. In other words, mocking religion is OK, mocking progressive ideals, not OK.
And he really cares about the outcome of high school football games. I found this essay a bit bewildering - sure, the coach should be free to pray wherever and whenever he wants, but how can he think that an omnipotent being would - forgive me - give a damn?
I thank God for a beautiful day, the rain, my grandchildren, my husband, my critters, so many things that bring me joy. Do I think that by doing so my joy will necessarily increase? No, I do it because He made me and all around me and I am grateful. He is my friend and my Savior. By the way, I also thank him for the negative things in life because those are where growth happens and also make me appreciate the positives more.
Beautifully said. I'm grateful for the wonderful life he's given me and all the wonderful people and things (food, housing) he's provided me. Do people rally believe that their lives are all a happy accident? Sad.
God made me not believe in God. Why would he do that?
I agree and there is something empowering in thanking our Creator for what He has made and enjoying it with Him.
And something humbling. And heaven knows, no pun intended, that is in short supply.
It was AFTER THE GAME. So clearly it wasn’t about praying to win
Pretty sure it’s about being obedient and thankful.
As much as I love your sarcasm, you are pretty admirable without it. I found this touching.
I taught at a Catholic high school named after Mary. Whenever our school played another Catholic school in football they would say that God doesn’t pick sides - but his mother does (our beloved school priest was quite the comedian)
Consider the infinite power and knowledge of God… every single thing that happens on Earth is tiny and insignificant compared to Him. So if He cares about one thing, He cares about all things. He has infinite mercy and care for all things, even the tiny insignificant things.
Because the idea is that He cares about everyone. So if football mattered to this Coach, the Lord heard his prayer. His prayer was after the game so it was not "[P]lease Lord, let us win". Although it might well have been "[T]hank you Lord for giving these young men success on the field[.]" or "[T]hank you Lord for seeing these young men safely through this competition". . .
Or, as I would have prayed in that situation, "Thank you for letting my arthritic knees bend this far down!"
Good one. It made me grin.
Dead true, too, for my knees, anyway . . .
Perfect illustration of the selfish mindset destroying the world wielded by people who could never imagine doing something if they don’t get a treat for it.
Religion has also convinced people that if they drive the right kind of car the weather will be better.
What’s your point?
You’re misinformed.
Preach the Gospel continually, use words if necessary.
Just sayin': “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you."
If you are saying that only prayer conducted in private is meaningful I do not think that is accurate. I think sincere prayer is the standard. Prayer to be seen by others is not sincere prayer.
I believe OneSip is suggesting that ostentatious public prayer - even when sincere - is perhaps prideful instead of humble.
I understand that c9ncept. I j7st do not accept that all public prayer is ostentatious, prideful or insincere. Otherwise all those prayers when young Mr. Hamlin collapsed on the field would be deemed insincere. And I think they were anything but. I also think they were heard and answered. I also think the rev8vals that recently swept college campuses were heartfelt. That being said I have known some very insincere Christians, or at least they seemed that way to me, who are in church every time the doors open.
Everyone has been programmed to find offense in everything. Being a victim is having status. Non prayers are victims too.
Seems to me that a prayer off of public property would have sufficed. His goal is not God or the salvation of souls. His goal is self promotion. Too bad. Now we get to know who he is. His ego is without bounds.
“Just as Kennedy proved divisive, so too did Kaepernick. Just as Kennedy was pushing back against an encroaching illiberalism on the left, Kaepernick was pushing back against the illiberalism of the right.”
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That is not what Kaepernick was doing. Kaepernick was protesting the United States because he thinks it is a shitty country that has slave patrols killing Black people. He thinks this because he is a moron.
My kids were very involved in CYO (Catholic Youth Organization) sports through middle school. Every CYO sporting event began and ended with a standard prayer - where the teams, coaches, and fans prayed together for the safety of the participants and for a spirited and fair sporting event. It was one of the aspects that I enjoyed the most about CYO sports.
To your point, I suspect that Kennedy was praying for the same sort of things, The comparison with Kaepernick is simply ridiculous.
My favorite part about the Kaepernick story was that his teammate Eric Reid was also involved, also took a knee, and stated that he had to make a protest because of the shooting by police of "unarmed black people" like Alton Sterling specifically, whose story affected Reid the most because it had just happened in Reid's hometown.
Alton Sterling was armed, and the police were specifically responding in his case to citizens calling in and describing an armed man waving a gun around.
Reid's op-ed in NYT: "In early 2016, I began paying attention to reports about the incredible number of unarmed black people being killed by the police. The posts on social media deeply disturbed me, but one in particular brought me to tears: the killing of Alton Sterling in my hometown Baton Rouge, La. This could have happened to any of my family members who still live in the area. I felt furious, hurt and hopeless."
Again, Sterling was armed.
This also demonstrates that the whole thing was social media driven. If huge numbers of unarmed blacks were being killed since forever, how was he oblivious to it prior to 2016.
Another proof of that were the George Floyd-related protests in European cities... it's not even their government, but the social media fed outrage spurred them to illogical action, protesting in London to demand changes at the local law enforcement level in the US.
Anyone on this sub thread have any Black friends? Particularly male Black friends? If so, ask them about their experiences with police. I was pretty shocked. Like when you’re 8, son of a diplomat living in a wealthy neighborhood, and you come out of your neighbor’s house after feeding her cat to find half a dozen police officers with their guns trained on you, screaming at you to get down.
How about when all your friends get caught underage drinking and they arrest the only black kid? Yeah, he had a record - for not returning a vhs tape to a rental store. Meanwhile, my white friends were running a stolen Levi’s resale business.
One of my friends - super chill, not anti-police - finally exchanged his BMW for a little Toyota because he was sick of being pulled over.
Just consider the possibility that, over time, these sorts of things might build up and make you wary, even if you know intellectually that not all police are racist. Why can so many white folks not accept that we just can’t know what it’s like? Why not have that humility?
The problem for me is the facts you mention, which concern me and many others, and the false accusations of mass murders of unarmed black men.
Re the claims of “mass murders” of unarmed black men, humans are not known for being nuanced - on either side of an issue. If we don’t agree that something is white, we plant our feet shout “No, it’s black!” There are real problems with policing that for a variety of complicated reasons fall disproportionately on Black men. That’s real and it’s a problem. Yet, polls show most Black people want more police in their communities, not less, which cuts directly against the Defund narrative. But that doesn’t mean they aren’t wary of police, or don’t think policing needs serious reform.
Anyway, I participated in a study of effective policing and know tons of s*** about this stuff, but there are so many factors I’d need at least ten pages to discuss them all. And ain’t nobody got time for that. :)
Yep, but he’s protected under the first amendment, as is your right to express your opinion in the public square. A constitution that was revolutionary and still is today.
One was a direct attack on the customer base of a business, by an employee of the business, done specifically to be maximally visible.
The other was done quietly at a public school event in a way that would only offend psychopaths who hate Christians. Devout Christians pray before literally everything.
They are not remotely comparable.
“Oh but they are both legal.”
Yeah I didn’t say one was illegal. I said only a dipshit would compare them. Hope that helps.
And coercive! Do you think that other players didn't feel coerced by that second string quarterback's display? RACIAL SOLIDARITY! How many Black players felt the pressure to do the same just because of the locker room pressure? How many resisted?
To conflate these two cases is cheap journalism and a case of "what aboutism".
The FP is run by Bari who still leans left. But her conversion to a a Constitutionalist, even if still flawed, is to be celebrated.
Probably about the same that felt pressure to get the shot when they knew that they didn't want to and that it was a bad idea.
I’m sorry I did, I had to bow to Brandon!s pressure, it was all BS the whole Covid story, it’s brought the average American to his/her knees. It’s going to take a whole lot of pray and good leadership to get us on our feet. We need a very strong leader to take us all forward.
I know I can’t convince you of anything, even with data, but https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/people-in-republican-counties-have-higher-death-rates-than-those-in-democratic-counties/
Btw, my husband worked for Trump on OWS. He and his fellow scientists worked 18-hour days, 7 days a week for months on end (my husband took his first day off on thanksgiving 2020). They were all doing the very best they could to save lives. And they did. They saved millions of lives. They are heroes and it’s just so sad that you will always consider them scammers and dupes.
Let me remind you, Kaepernick was nobody’s boss. He held the fate of exactly zero of his teammates in his hands. A majority of players never took a knee.
My reply wasn't directed at you or Kopernick, who's a grifter, was just showing my appreciation for the men of their times who produced our Declaration of Independence and Constitution. Which after a quarter century, given todays times, is still revolutionary.
I understand. But the lie is pretending that is relevant. It was a manipulative ploy by left-wing anti-American extremists to wrap Kaepernick in the flag when it had nothing to do with speech rights.
You don’t get to do whatever the f*** you want at work because The Constitution exists.
Make that 250 years..or so..:)
What's ironic is that the psychopaths thought they were able to stop the coach from praying....yes, on the field but not in his heart and mind. I'm quite sure he probably continued to pray for them in addition to the situation. One of the most amazing and mysterious things Jesus ever told His followers was to love our enemies and to pray for those who persecuted us. He is the only Man that ever said this.
Dipshit... One of my favorite words!
😇😇
It does!
That’s clear enough, even for a dipshit.
Unless he had tacit approval and support of the ownership of the team, being based in San Francisco, I'm sure he did. The two situations aren't in the least bit similar but both involve freedom of expression, one was suppressed the other was not. Kopernick opinion means nothing to me, as stated he's a grifter.
When Papa John was fired from his position for saying the "n word" on a call nobody cried "freedom of expression."
Rules for thee, not for me
DD, there are first amendment distinctions between a private business (NFL and individual teams) as compared with a public employee (public school coach). I believe the first amendment prohibits the government from infringing on free speech and is not directly applicable to a private business.
I struggle with the comparison to Kappernick.
I have a hard time squaring that the First Amendment as it relates to religious liberty has the same interpretation as the First Amendment as it relates to secular protest. They are not handled the same and there are more infringements that are legally accepted for protest. There is also the complication that one is being restricted by a government entity and the other a private business.
If he really cared so much about enslaved people, he’d stop making millions and join Tim Ballard in an effort to save trafficked humans.
No, it’s NFL players who are enslaved. Making millions, working 5 months a year. Oh, the humanity.
They certainly aren't slaves, given they freely apply for these jobs. But they work year-round, not just five months, and given the billions in revenue they generate for television networks, even a few million a year is underpaid.
I agree that being a professional athlete is a full-time job that requires significant sacrifices. You lost me at underpaid. Under the current agreement players get 48.5% of all revenue.
Agreed, but the problem is a big part of that revenue goes to relatively few superstars. The players who grind it out without being TV-worthy catches don't make all that much relative to the work they do and the few years they can serve in the NFL.
I'm not complaining on their behalf, because this is the career they all chose and knew all the pay imbalances upfront. I'm only saying that many---but not all---players are underpaid.
I read your later comment and agree that lower echelon players earn significantly less than the early round picks or those who establish themselves as powerhouses (like Tom Brady for example),but I disagree that they work for the NFL full time. They work for the NFL during pre and off-season training camps, travel to and from games, at practice and during games. Of course it is in their best interest to maintain their skills during the off-season so as not to be beat out for their position. They also maintain their physicality so as to remain competitive,
but also to decrease the likelihood of serious injury, thereby increasing the longevity of their career. Most of these guys come from.NFL light colleges and are well-versed in their value. They do, as I understand it, have contract provisions that limit or prohibit engaging in dangerous activities during the term of the contract. Also the players themselves come and go and are essentially replaceable. The NFL is an entrenched entity with a massive infrastructure, massive advertising value, and massive investment therein.
Yes, they work for their particular teams full-time, with the NFL being the marketing and scheduling power behind the throne.
As for money, a smart person like you already knew average vs. specific wages. If a publisher pays James Patterson $10 million for his next crime novel and pays Shane $10,000 for his, "authors" sure are rich, but Shane still has to work a day job and Jim doesn't.
The NFL controls those teams.
This made me laugh!
Kapernick has actually compared the NFL combine to a slave auction.
Right before his annual "The only reason I'm not in the NFL is because of my politics" tour.
Yes, forgot about that!
It was a con to get attention because he was benched
You don’t read minds. So, you don’t know Kapernick’s mental intentions, a fact.
I think he did this after George Floyd died in police custody. There are always questions about deaths if anyone dies in police custody as there should be. I think it happens to many people but Black Americans more often. I may be wrong but I don’t think so.
George Floyd was in hand cuffs. Why not simply place him in a squad car, take him to the jail where the next level of the justice department takes over. The police have a specific and important roll. They are to apprehend real or assumed offenders and place them into the custody of justice. They will bear witness if required at a later time. They do not judge or pass sentence. A sentence of death was passed onto George Floyd by the police, a role they do not enjoy in our system.
You respond a lot to every article in this “paper” and usually with disdain or anger. The anger is consistent so I imagine you are a simple angry person or you are a shill for the FREE PRESS to garner responses because any attention, shitty or not is commodified.
I find your responses predictable. You are free to speak for sure but you become irrelevant by the day.
Carry on.
He didn’t kneel for a picture of Derek Chauvin. He kneeled for the American flag. I don’t know the custody death stats either but whatever they are I’m sure Democrats are using them to unnecessarily terrorize Black Americans.
Typical of TFP to make this comparison.
Very sad.
Why is it sad? Kennedy was exercising his First Amendment rights, as was Kaepernick. We should be thrilled that people with such diverse thought are both free to exercise their rights under the Constitution.
You either believe in free speech or you don't.
I do believe in free speech. Bad speech must always be responded to with more speech.
What is sad, is that when an issue (freedom of religion) like the one in this essay is presented, TFP must always present a counter narrative, to muddy the waters. Because of its liberal bias, TFP cannot and will not just present an issue that is important to the right without bringing in something that is important to the left. My view is that the reader is capable doing this alone.
I get what you're saying. To a certain extent I even agree. Unfortunately, both the left and the right love their echo chambers, and I think the reminder that the right are far from angels on this front is important.
Neither is perfect. I agree.
Brilliant post Kevin you on fire.
True. But even morons have the right to bray their idiocy in public.
Spot on. That sentence hit me like nails on a blackboard. A truly off-key note in an otherwise excellent report.
Moving this comment
This article was going pretty well until the Democrats who write The FP felt the desperate need to shoehorn one of their heroes into it. On the plus side, it's a daily reminder that even sources I put my wallet behind are happily gaslighting me.
His right to do so. It's his right to be an offensive, ignorant, unpatriotic idiot, if that's how you view him. Just like the NFL had the right to stop him. They own the professional game he plays in. Free country. Still. That's why you can say what you like. And that's why the FP has the right as well to make the huge mistake in cancelling you..
I'd hate to see you go, Kevin. (FP won't do it, of course, you're too valuable..)
“Rather, the judgment upholds the right of public employees to exercise their faith through private acts of religious activity on the job.”
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My favorite argument from Democrats on this is the argument that he was intimidating students by praying by himself and they might be coerced into praying. Right.
But the lady waving a dildo around *during class* and talking about group sex and how boys and girls are the same and how you can switch genders because otherwise the patriarchy wins, well she’s just doing The Science.
He's not exactly "praying by himself," he's praying on the 50 yard line. And it's not just any activity we're talking about, it's an ostentatious display of religion at a public school in a country where the constitution prohibits the government from endorsing religion. It's not helpful to be so black and white about this situation which is a tricky one. At the end of the day he has the right to do this but the real question we should all be asking is whether he is right to do this
It's not tricky. The school didn't do it, people at the school did it of their own free will. That's not the government endorsing a religion. Other religions can do it also.
What's far more serious are political activism flags like BLM and the Pride flag being flown in schools, because they behave as religions while exempting themselves from the rules we place on religious beliefs.
Yes, Wokeism is without a doubt a religion. Some have compared the fervor to old New England fire and brimstone Protestants in the 19th century.
The only thing more psychotic than claiming a Christian coach praying equals the government establishing a religion, is the notion that decorative cakes are a public accommodation.
It is absolutely impossible to think that this is an issue/problem unless you have a maniacal hatred for Christians.
I am a christian and I pray, so there's that, but it's telling that the counter-arguments made in this thread go right to anti-LGBT arguments. It's the only religious freedom a lot of people seem to want in 2023 - the right to discriminate against LGBT people
The only reason LGBT is being mentioned is because, by contrast, it exposes the absurd dishonesty of the people pretending a guy praying at a football game is a problem we need to address.
Also, opposing child sexual abuse at the hands of government agents is not a religious position. Kinda insulting to non-believers to suggest that it is. Reminds me of the people who say that ‘hard work’ is a white concept.
I'm not following how your comment relates to LGBT people
Reread it. You’re the one who brought it up. I simply explained it to you.
Or are you not following how 22% of American CHILDREN adopting a boutique SEXUAL identity relates to LGBT indoctrination in schools and is clearly child sexual abuse?
(children aren’t sexual, Alan)
Simply because you don’t want something shoved in your face is not discrimination. I am a Christian but I don’t necessarily want someone yelling in my face that I am going to go to hell if I do not repent my evil ways.
My main point here is that religion is a special case because the constitution specifically prohibits the state establishing religion
But he's not "the government endorsing". To me the issue here is that he's a coach, so he's in an official capacity. He and the school should work together to sort out how he doesn't pray and give the impression that he's acting in the official capacity representing the school. (And there are many precedents of about this same issue of apparent agency in US court cases.)
Beyond that, I always think the secular Left is very hypocritical. They fought all those years for the right of gays to come out of the closet (which I think is correct), but then they would do everything possible to lock Christians (and that's Christians, specifically) in the closets. They pick issue with any public display of Christianity like it's something we Christians have to hide and be ashamed of. While I know people living in the Evangelical South don't feel this problem at all, elsewhere especially in blue states and cities, it really is a thing. Not so much now but for years they wage what conservatives called "war on Christmas", then deny they were doing that. Meanwhile they get upset over Starbucks using seasonal Christmas coffee cups, and complained about Walmart displaying Merry Christmas decorations. The backlash against Tim Tebow was ridiculous. But that actually went all the way back to Michael Chang. What's it to them that one athlete wanted to thank God for his success? If Christianity was a big and essential part of his life, why did he have to hide it and not talk about it to please these people?
The Constitutional right against imposing religion is not a right to exclude Christians from freely exercising their religion in public. But that's what the secular Left wants. Just all Christians to pray in the closets and be ashamed to come out as a Christian.
The specific difference with gays here - and, separately, why do we drag the gays into ever religious freedom discussion? - is that the constitution prohibits the state from endorsing a religion. So when we have a high profile state employee praying not only on state grounds but at a highly visible location (the 50 yard line), with his public school students, let's not pretend it's just the same thing as a kid saying a little prayer to himself at a desk before an exam.
I address the same thing you did regarding a state employee's apparent agency in representing the government. "Apparent" refers to a legal term, so you and I are not disagreeing here. Other people already pointed out his prayers are after the games. That said, I do think the apparent agency is an issue which in my comment I said it is something he and the school should address and work out. Maybe the problem is today adults can't just talk and come to some kind of solution but instead everything has to be made into political issues.
As for the comparison to gays, I wasn't talking about sexual orientation or religion. I was talking about how people who are anti-Christianity in progressive states in fact really would like Christians to hide their faith in the closets. And that makes them hypocrites.
So, I believe the distinction made by the Supreme Court’s majority decision is that it happened after the game (when Kennedy is not in his official position as a public school coach) and was protected as “private speech”. I think the timing/role of Kennedy is the applicable component (and not necessarily the highly visible public location). If this had happened at a private location (i.e., maybe a game against a private school at their home field) but during a time when Kennedy was acting in an official role as a coach, then would the decision be different?
AFTER THE GAME. Geez do you people not read? The stadium was emptying out.
It is about intent. Prayer is universal. It need not be sectarian. Everyone can give thanks in their own way. And should.
Not disagreeing, but the coach himself makes the point that this is a win for religious people
He may mean it’s a win for people who wish to express themselves spiritually and in gratitude to a higher power no matter who/what you believe it is.
Anything's possible, but he only mentions Cristians, Jews and Muslims. It would really go a long way if he even mentioned students who don't follow any faith.
If they don't follow any faith then they don't pray to a higher power. They believe all existence is a happy coincidence.
The original intent of the separation of church and state was to prevent a Church of England situation where other branches of Christianity were not tolerated. It was not to stamp out religion entirely from the public square (though, admittedly, the founders mostly were theists rather than practicing Christians and did envision a secular society that nonetheless respected and protected religious rights).
Exactly.
What you want is no religious observance in public. That is interference with religious freedom.
So true.....but then again, you gotta love a waving dildo. Just sayin......
I’m sure within five years our military will have those guys on aircraft carriers who direct the planes waving glow-in-the-dark penises as we prepare to get blown up in Taiwan.
Yes, that’s bound to happen. I wonder how far we would be as a country if during D-Day our planes would have dropped in an army of trans, and as you say, glow in the dark penises.
Trans troops would be easily repelled by misgendering their pronouns and dead-naming them.
🤣🤣🤣
Kevin..you need to have a stand-up special on Netflix. Enough said..the end.
😂😂
Truth.
But the Marxists can do this freely in the name of morality.
I am an Orthodox Jew and a conservative. I have worn the US Army uniform and my father jumped into France on June 6, 1945. I believe with all my heart in the Constitution and the exceptionalism of America. However, I have also been the only Jew on a high school team lead by a wonderful coach who led prayers in which I could not participate. There are nuances here that I think are not appreciated by those who have never experienced being the minority. It is a fundamental right to practice religion - any religion - in the United States and thank God it is. But a charismatic, respected coach of high school students has an additional layer of responsibility. Yes - no student was “coerced” into participating. I experienced no coercion on my high school team to participate in prayer. But I also got to experience what it was like to be the only person who DIDN’T participate. I experienced the comments and looks from my fellow students who, after their prayer, felt I was somehow deserving of rebuke and approbation for not being a Christian. A leader with resounding loyalty and absolute power has a burden to consider additional perspectives then simply what s/he should be allowed to do as an individual, especially a leader of children and adolescents. Much of the US system is in place to protect the rights of those in the minority. I have lived that minority experience and I wish others would try to put themselves in that place.
Your story reminds me of when I had my son in a private, non denominational middle school. The music teacher put on a holiday singing program. Most of the songs were Christian or secular, but there was one Jewish one too. The Christians kids had no problem singing the Hannukah song. But the Mom of a Jewish kid complained to the teacher about her son having to sing Christian songs. The teacher told her, that’s the program, and if Aaron doesn’t want to sing those songs, he can drop out of the event. Sometimes, it’s not all about you.
The large public high school that I attended in the distant suburbs of NYC had some marvelous traditions as part of the annual Christmas concert. Alumni were invited to join the band in playing Leroy Anderson's "Christmas Festival", and to join the chorus in singing "The Messiah". I did both - including standing and singing next to my mom in the alumni Chorus. The huge high school auditorium was always packed, and the concert enjoyed huge support from almost everyone in the community. Almost everyone...
Then, due to the threat of lawsuits, things changed. First, the Christmas concert became the "Holiday Concert", that included a mix of songs. That wasn't good enough. The concert evolved further and became the "Winter Concert", and it included one or two holiday-related songs. That still wasn't good enough, so the playing/singing of any holiday music was banned. But that still didn't satisfy the critics because of the timing, so the Winter Concert was moved to late-January.
Many years later I had an opportunity to attend a Winter Concert at my old high school when I happened to be traveling in the area on business. The band and chorus played and sang beautifully - in the same huge school auditorium where I had performed 40 years earlier. The difference was that it was only about 1/3 full, and there was nowhere near the "buzz" and excitement that I had experienced in my high school days. How sad.
An explicit goal of cultural Marxism is to kill all of these traditions - religious or not - that bind communities and families. Small and lonely people without tradition are far easier to control.
This is what is happening in Christian churches also. Those that water down the gospel and are not bible based are dying out. Those that stay true to the word, are flourishing.
I am an atheist who celebrates Christmas. I love the music, specifically the religious music because it’s so beautiful, I love the goodwill towards my fellow humans, I love the lights and spending time with friends and family...
And I don’t hate Christians. I judge people one at a time, not by groups.
I don't think he's saying it's 'all about him". He's not saying others shouldn't or can't have programs suited to the majority either. His point is, coaches and those in positions of power and influence ought to be aware of their effect on others who don't follow them. It's just a more nuanced take. Why is that so bad?
Your example isn't even close to being the same as his.
Do you find that story equivalent to being harassed by teammates for not being a Christian?
In my story it was the Jewish mom harrassing the teacher, trying to change the whole singing program so one kid would be “comfortable” . But the teacher politely told her her son didn’t have to participate if he didn’t like it. He wasn’t coerced to join, but everyone else wasn’t going to change for him either.
So do you find that equivalent?
I think her point is, nearly everyone can find a time in their life when they felt like an outsider, it's part of being human. Perhaps what's important is not how we are treated, but how we react to that treatment.
It shows a common thread of intolerance.
Lousy players get harassed by teammates, just sayin...
Indeed, I was not very good. Does that mean I got what I deserved?
Man, get over your victimhood.
Argumentum ad hominem? Really? It’s sad that you resort to labeling an observation and perspective as victimhood because it does not conform to your view of the world.
Not at all, and I would never condone belittling someone for their lack of athletic ability or religious beliefs. Both are wrong. But so is conflating the two. I'm not saying that's what you're doing, but it's probably worth thinking about.
Could we find out more about your situation? How did the other athletes know you didn’t pray? Did you stand up while they kneeled? Did you leave? Just trying to get the picture.
At the invitation of the coach, the team would move to the side of the pool and kneel in prayer. I would stay on the bench, a small distance away being in a pool. The coach would know I would be doing this and would not make a big deal out of it. But my fellow students certainly did.
If you had it to do all over again, would you have done anything differently?
I don’t think so (although, at 14, I don’t know if I would have had the maturity to do anything differently). The issue is that, like all people who take religion seriously, for Jews the specific words really matter. I have no problem praying with non-Jews (and do so with my patients before surgery all the time). But when it ends with “in Jesus’ name we pray” or something like that, it’s a major problem for me. I simply cannot join or even appear to be joining in. I can’t just stand quietly (and we don’t kneel at all). So . . . probably not.
So I don’t know the song list, but it depends on the amount of theology. A lot of Christmas songs contain elements of theology, while a lot of Hannuka songs in English are innocuously about candles and dreidels.
Rudolph the red nose rain deer is fine. Oh Come Ye Faithful is not ok for a Jewish child to sing. So he can opt out of the event or he can just be silent for that song. Either way shouldn’t be a problem for the school if one kid doesn’t sing a song or two.
And yeah being a minority is uncomfortable. I think in this case the coach has a responsibility to identify and address that other teammates are being disrespectful of someone who doesn’t participate, since it can ruin on-field play.
In my old neighborhood in Georgia our Christmas caroling was led by my Jewish next door neighbor. He had a great singing voice and seemed to enjoy it.
I’m Jewish, too, and in my opinion that coach had every right to pray in public. If only more people were observant enough to pray. What’s the harm? Suck it up.
Perhaps you didn’t read my post fully. He has a right to pray in public. But as an authority figure it is disingenuous to think that the students didn’t feel pressure just because they were not overtly “coerced.” If someone experienced discrimination, pressure and/or harassment (as I did), would that not factor into the situation? Or is this another case of individual “rights” trumping any other consideration? (That sounds a lot like what conservatives are currently fighting.)
I’m a Jew too. Why didn’t you just take the opportunity to pray at the same time? You have no obligation to pray to Jesus.
Just curious Doug if you are also Orthodox? If so then you’re point of view may be somewhat unique amongst Orthodox Jews.
Not Orthodox. But being Orthodox does not prevent one from hanging around with non-Jewish men, just women. :)
Ha!!!
Heck, you don't even have to pray. But you could still join your team in solidarity. Or not for that mater.
Unfortunately, your comment reflects a fundamental lack of understanding of my religion. My point is to put yourself in someone else’s place, not to just assume that your situation is universal.
Some conundra have no easy answer; many have no (good) answer at all. (Say! Maybe that's why we call them counundra!) Permit me to ask: Is there any limit to which one must self-censor to avoid rubbing against sensibilities of which one may or may not be aware?
There is a vast gulf between societal pressure and mandated behavior. That's what many of our friends on the left fail to perceive.
Much is being made about feeling pressured or coerced. You weren’t being pressured to participate in a crime. It was just a moment of praying. So, go, stand there, be polite. Pray to your God if you want to, or don’t. Daydream. It’s like Christian kids singing the Hannukah song at the holiday program. So what?
Haven’t you ever felt excluded? As a teenager especially, that’s very painful. It’s insensitive to pretend as though the poster’s feelings are unimportant.
Having said that, I think the coach in this story did the right thing, so my response to you is not about disagreeing with his actions.
Every teen feels excluded for many reasons. That does not mean their feelings should dictate how the rest of the world behaves.
I don’t think the OP was arguing against public prayer. He was just giving his personal experience of the downside of that. The coach in his case should have been more mindful of his situation. I’m sure it wasn’t a secret that he is an Orthodox Jew
Of course, but I got over it. I’m not a victim.
Suppose I wasn’t accepted into a sorority. Should I spend the rest of my life feeling agrieved because a few girls didn’t think I was pretty enough to be in their clique? Please.
Maureen, being excluded from a sorority, with all due respect, is not equivalent to being an Orthodox Jew in a Christian society. I think the poster was just looking for some understanding as the outsider.
You make all good points and I respect your opinion. And still my response to your argument is- so what? Life is a series of choices. They’re not always comfortable.
This is exactly what I’ve been saying. Maybe he’s within his rights. And maybe prayer is harmless. The issue here is religious freedom, and I would argue these kids aren’t experiencing it. They are being socially pressured to participate in religion.
Oh, stop. They are not in any way.
But you give the game a way with “maybe he is within his rights.” No. He is 100% completely within his rights. It is the black letter law of the land.
You either have such a crippling case of FOMO you can’t encounter a person minding their own business without seeing it as ostracism or you’re a bigot whose delicate eyes can’t be sullied by any evidence of religion. I’m guessing it’s bigotry.
Haha. Wow, you literally don’t know anything about me or my relationship with religion, but sounds like you’ve got it all figured out. You seem delightful. Enjoy your angry life.
I get it that a person might not want to take part in a prayer to a strange God or a king or a queen or something like that; but it does seem curious that a person would reject a prayer to their own God. Why is it important to reject a prayer like that?
I think you’re overthinking this. Maybe try asking those boys if they care whether the man is praying for them. Likely most of them will express indifference or appreciation.
What about being the only player to not kneel during the anthem at the NFL, and have teammates potentially think you are racist?
Suck it up?
Yes, I'm afraid so. In the case of anthem-kneelers, it is the one who doesn't kneel, but stands with hand patriotically on heart, who deserves our praise and admiration, not the cowards spitting on their own country to score points with the woke mob.
Just my opinions.
Slippery slope, William. Sometimes life isn't fair and feelings are hurt. But, as you concede, the coach had the right to pray. Not all Christians are alike either. Was the coach Catholic? A born again Baptist? As long as you're not coerced, that's all we can ask for in society. The alternative of banning and control by government is far worse. You say the coach was a wonderful guy. Did you express your feelings to him? Did your teammates ostracize you?
Yes, they did (see post).
Did the coach intercede?
No, but it was not his fault. As anyone who has been in high school knows, much goes on without teachers/coaches knowing. He was doing what he believed to be right and, at the time, there was little discussion around these topics. He’s a wonderful human being and probably the most influential in my life after my parents. I recently had the opportunity to tell him that. Many years later, he also had the opportunity to see the situation from my perspective and completely understood.
You sound like a very decent, forgiving guy. Thanks for engaging so openly. I understand your feelings and sympathize with anyone who feels excluded. I just disagree that we can mandate that nobody's feelings get hurt. I don't dispute that societal pressures exist and can be painful. But I think we need to draw the line at that which is actually mandated by government and its instrumentalities and that which is simply believed to been societally coercive.
I would agree with you on most things. But not children/adolescents and situations like high school with inordinate amounts of influence from teachers/coaches. Isn’t that what we battle against with the current school board issues? I don’t want the mostly Christian society of the US to conform to my needs. I’ve spent my life figuring out how to accommodate. HOWEVER, I don’t think high school students should have to be thrown into the fray without some extra consideration.
Thanks for your comment and perspective William. That's an important perspective.
Very well said, William. As someone who was once one of 2 Jewish children in an entire school back before school prayer was ruled unconstitutional, I clearly remember the feelings you describe. Many of the other comments miss the point that separation of church and state is also part of the First Amendment and must be considered along with free exercise of religion and free speech.
No the separation is NOT part of the first amendment.
Not only is "separation of church and state" not part of the Constitution, separation of church FROM state is clearly contrary to it.
Freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion.
“Many of the other comments miss the point that separation of church and state is also part of the First Amendment”
I’m not sure what your point is but the Supreme Court ruled that the coach and his players engaged in a constitutionally protected activity. Are you siding with the opponents who deprived them of that Right? Is it ok with you that someone’s hurt feelings or antipathy to religious expression trumps the constitution?
“I…felt I was somehow deserving of rebuke and approbation for not being a Christian”
Could it be that the prayer sessions the coach and players engaged in were more about fellowship than religion? I wonder if there were any Jews or Muslims that chose to participate for that very reason. My guess is that if any did want to participate, they would not have been excluded whether they chose to pray Christ, God, or Allah. You chose not to do either. That says more about you than Christians, your coach, or your teammates.
Not a very nice comment. He was a teenager at the time and felt excluded. I support the coach’s right to pray, but you’re just being unkind. Compassion goes a long way.
“He was a teenager at the time and felt excluded”.
If you know one teenager that didn’t feel excluded one time or another tell them to buy a lottery ticket because they’re luckier than me or anyone I know. At the end of the day, I’d rather be called mean than whiney.
And, is your point that you feel I was deserving of rebuke and approbation?
I'm still trying to figure out YOUR point. Your teammates chose to be Christians and express their religious beliefs. You chose to be an Orthodox Jew and eschew their expression of that belief. You say you were subjected to “comments and looks from my fellow students after their prayer”, and they felt that you were “somehow deserving of rebuke and approbation for not being a Christian”. What exactly were you looking for, approbation for being an Orthodox Jew? Self censorship on your teammates part?
I get you’re in a minority, but then you choose to be. And as you say, “much of the US system is in place to protect the rights of those in the minority”. It wasn’t always like that. In fact, there was a time when being in a religious minority got you nailed to a cross. In the grand scheme of things, suffering “looks and comments” in order to practice your religion seems like a small price to pay
As elsewhere, this reflects a fundamental lack of understanding of Jewish law and prayer.
You're so wrapped up in victimhood I think you have a fundamental lack of understanding humanity
William, You make a very good point. Being the outsider, feeling excluded - we’ve all been there in one situation or another, and it’s very difficult, especially for a teenager. Is there something the coach could have done to bring you into the fold? God is the same God to everyone, so if he’s wasn’t praying specifically to Jesus, would you have felt comfortable participating?
That’s a very interesting question. It probably would have worked for me (although there are nuances). However, having spent my entire life living as a minority in a Christian society, I’m sensitive to the fact, as someone critical of my comment put it, that “it’s not all about me.” I wish everyone would have that attitude. It’s not about me and my understanding or practices. I’m not a Muslim nor a Hindu nor an atheist and I don’t pretend to speak for or even understand all of their issues. If that man were kneeling on a sidewalk, praying to Jesus, I would ardently defend his right to do so. However, I believe one of the genius ideas of our Founders was that the minority needs to be protected. As is evident by some of the comments here, sometimes people in the majority have a difficult time even understanding there may be a different perspective.
I think that human to human, most people, even the posters pushing against your original post, understand your sentiments. It’s that there has been such a pivot in American society against public prayer, especially Christian public prayer (Christianity being the religion of the “oppressive, white patriarchy”) that people with right leanings have a knee-jerk reaction against anyone who appears to be in the anti-public prayer camp.
Your point is the only reason I felt compelled to write this post. I actually AGREE with most (all?) of the backlash against traditional values and often use that ironic phrase as satire. But, sometimes, the majority needs to realize that there is some heterogeneity that needs to be considered or at least an attempt at understanding. I grew up in a community almost entirely Christian, almost all of whom were wonderful, tolerant and kind people. But even the best of them could sometimes forget that not everything could be seen through one specific lens. My only point.
Yes, they are not mutually exclusive! Compassion and understanding are always good, no matter what position you’re coming from.
You realize he prayed by himself AFTER the game right? And some joined in eventually but not all.
I am curious - what do you think a solution would be in your situation without eliminating their ability to pray?
I hope we can agree that more public religious expression like prayer (done in a spirit of peace, not contention) is a Good Thing
When I was pastoring a UCC church years ago, I always made it VERY clear that Jesus was born AND died an Orthodox Jew. Ergo, if you professed a love of Jesus it was impossible to be an anti=Semite.
Indeed, the prayer that Jesus taught his disciples which is now perhaps mistakenly known as The Lord's prayer is a prayer taught by an Orthodox Jew to Orthodox jews that any Jew can pray with no trepidation that they are in a minority . If anyone feels they can't join in a prayer on the 50 yard line in line with their own tradition, , it may be that prayer is not an important part of their life - not the fear that they will be met with rebuke and approbation. After all, who knows what is being said by the coach - i know people who consider prayer to be a cry for help in finding the right color for a refrigerator.
. - Jesus during his ministry and at the time of his death, was not a Christian. The term didn't start to be used for years after his death. People were known as Followers of Jesus. Indeed, one needs to study the rise of Christianity years after Jesus was crucified BY THE ROMANS to understand the very complicated situation that the apostle Paul - himself an Orthodox Jew - and the persecuted Jesus community faced and why in the 300s Contantine made it the religiion of the empire.
I am a Christian because I was raised in the church AND because I follow the teachings of Jesus which are pretty similar to the teachings of the Hebrew prophets. Please let both sides - Jews and CHristians alike - stop separating us from our common heritage. Indeed, the Hebrew scriptures are even more beloved than the Christian scriptures. Kids know the story of Jonah and the Whale but few can exigete the letter to the Romans.
Thanks for your service William. Is it possible that you can kneel and pay respect to the God of your choice, (or for those who don’t believe in any God... to the memory of those who died for our current “freedom”) and not disrespect anyone, but just be both grateful and pious?
You pose an understandable question. I am very grateful for the multitude of blessings in my life and for the world we have been given in general. I try to be pious (although with limited success). But - no - I cannot kneel in prayer. My observation of those who have never experienced anything but living in the majority (ie, in this case, Christians in the US) is sometimes things that appear to be absolutely generalizable are not. “Prayer is prayer and why can’t we all pray together.” But Judaism is different (as are most religious I believe) and has it’s own set of rules, customs and practices. I frequently encounter questions that begin with “Can’t you just . . .” because people assume it’s no big deal and don’t we all do it that way. But that’s just not true. Kneeling for me would be a great sin. Even within Judaism, that isn’t true for Christians, but it is true for me as a Jew. Judaism has MANY rules (more than you can even imagine). I know that seems strange to many people, but we Jews find beauty and devotion there - just as devout people around the world find with their own religions. I’m not asking anyone to conform to anything for my religious practices. But I do ask that people approach it with the assumption that they don’t know and maybe even with a little sensitivity.
I think this is changing and people are more understanding, but it does takes time. Once I was flying to FLA and a rabi did a quick prayer in the airplane before we took off. I am not Jewish but I was glad that someone was asking for a divine protection, no issues for me. I grew up in a country that was 90% Catholic and now it is 45%, but never in my mind occurred to be hostil against other religions.
But that leaves the majority without a position or at least the ability to express themselves publicly for fear of offfending a minority. We are seeing that play out large scale at this point in time. I used to wonder how in Saddam Hussein's Iraq the minority Sunni controlled the majority Shia. I understand now. If you are a minority that by definition means you are different than the majority. I do not see that as a bad thing necessarily.
It is about intent. Prayer is universal. It need not be sectarian. Everyone can give thanks in their own way. And should.
This case once again proves that public school administrators and its lawyers have to be the most willfully ill informed group of “educated” people in America.
They constantly and consistently take positions in clear violation of the bill of rights and quite well settled legal principles against liberty.
Last week some school district tossed as middle school kid out of school for a dont tread on me back pack claiming it could supress his freedom of expression to avoid the appearance of supporting unpopular political movements ( they claimed the Gadsen flag was also used by “right wing subversive organizations.
The fact is they ( administrators) are intolerant and ignorant of the law and use the power they have to suppress speech they disagree with . That is terrifying and bodes badly for the future.
They actually said that the Gadsen flag was racist.
Another proof of the abysmal state of our schools.
I am not sure why people get so upset when other people want to have a moment of silent gratitude. No coercion, no hype, just gratitude. And yet some have this knee jerk response to silence those who they don’t agree with. Mind boggling.
Nothing is more dangerous to the authoritarian than someone recognizing they are not the highest power in the universe. Because if you believe that, it may lead you to realize that they are clueless dummies who don't have the intelligence to run a fruit and vegetable stand at the local farmers market, much less to try and tell you how to organize your life.
This is why they view religion as a threat to their power. And it is. And it's good.
Check out my conversion to the church of Robin DiAngelo-
https://www.sub-verses.com/p/the-book-of-gordon
“His final negotiated settlement amount of $1.7 million is a long way from the $5.5 million in legal fees First Liberty”
———————————————————
Denver just gave BLM $4.7 million as an apology for the modest efforts made to stop them from destroying the city.
BLM had no legal fees because 90% of attorneys are Democrat sacks of shit so they showed up to help them for free.
Prayer in view of impressionable young people? OMG!!! Boys in girls' locker rooms? No problem there!
The religion of the left leaning educators is, quite simply, LEFTISM! But because the Leftists' Temple of Worship is the halls of academe it is not regarded as a religion itself, but it clearly IS.
“noted that even though both men were kneeling, Kaepernick’s actions were seen as a more acceptable expression of the First Amendment than Kennedy’s”
———————————————————
For f*** sake what is with this retarded comparison because they were both kneeling?? Kaepernick was kneeling DURING THE NATIONAL ANTHEM AS A SIGN OF DISRESPECT. It isn’t even remotely similar.
Derek Chauvin was kneeling. Is it also kinda like Derek Chauvin and we should compare them because knees were involved??
🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡
Yes this was a pretty lame attempt at moral equivalency. Kaepernick is no hero. Joe Kennedy is a Marine, serving in the Corps for 20 years. I'd call him a hero.
If he had been kneeling in class to show 4th graders how to give oral sex he’d be getting an award at the White House from Joe Biden.
“It’s a parallel that Kennedy himself acknowledges, albeit begrudgingly.
“I support his right,” Kennedy said of Kaepernick. “But that doesn’t mean I like it.””
———————————————————
That is not him acknowledging a parallel. That is him agreeing that Kaepernick has a right to be a jackass.
If a Republican doesn't believe in God and doesn't want to pray, he doesn't pray.
If a Democrat doesn't believe in God and doesn't want to pray, NO ONE PRAYS.
That may be true-ish today, it wasn't that long ago that some Republicans/Christians had no problems trying to force people to think and act like they wanted them to. And some of those folks probably still would today is they were holding reigns again.
'True-ish'? What an awful, weak statement. Not that long ago?
You couldn't be more wrong, and of course offer no proof of a ridiculous comment.
Only 3 years ago a Republican held the reign in the WH.
Today they hold reign in the House of Representatives, and in districts all over America. Who and where are they forcing people to "think and act like they wanted them to"?
Meanwhile you force your sanctimonious ideology all the way to outlawing ceiling fans!!
Why don't you imbeciles find something worth fighting for, besides Orange Man Bad?
Watch your knee there buddy, its jerking all over the place. I voted for Trump. But regardless of that, I am guessing my actual views couldn't fit nicely on whatever graph you have in your head.
I was referring to the 80's when the moral majority was trying to censor all kinds of things. Religious groups using their clout to shut down businesses that didn't cater to what the groups believed was right. And if you want more recent examples, you can look at abortion laws all over the country.
My overall, poorly made point was that power corrupts. When some group gets in charge, they tend to try to force their views on others. I guess my point was also how we tend not to see when out side is doing the same kinds of things that we hate in others.
You MUST stay 25ft away from the coach who prays! Are they going to mark the area so the kids know how far not to step in? Our country has gone mad.
Yeah, I didn’t get that part, either. What’s the rationale? Assuming there is one and it’s not just an arbitrary grasping for power. “OK, he can pray, but you can’t get near him. So there.”
Didn't you know that 25 ft is the scientifically proven area of influence for a given prayer? It is just like 6 ft distancing for COVID. You don't want any prayer droplets landing on innocent kids 😆
This is perfect!! :)
Why would Bremerton School District want to waste thousands of dollars in court like that? And fight the appeal all the way to the Supreme Court?
Now they have to pay out over a million dollars, money that doubtless could have gone to more productive purposes, like education for example.
The administration at that school, along with the district leadership, should be fired.
People talk all the time about the growing secularization in America... yet wins like this show that faith and belief in God still occupy a major part of the public square. America is still a deeply religious nation at our core, and always will be.
America is partially becoming secular and this trend is exaggerated as policymakers are secular in larger numbers. But there is a thriving growth in religion from Muslims and Hindus. We are becoming less christian but we are still religious.
"America is still a deeply religious nation at our core, and always will be."
That's really just hyperbole. There are Americans who are religious, and Americans who are not. Unlike "gender" which is "fluid", Americans seem pretty set in either/or and very binary when it comes to religion. Those who aren't religious are not just being anti-religious on the facade and deeply religious at their cores. They hate religion.
That's not to say an individual person cannot somehow hear the call and or be touched by God and convert. But there's just no "core".
Religion does not just mean Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, etc. Religion refers to any belief system that requires one to have faith in something divine or supernatural. Wokeism, gender ideology, astrology, New Age spirituality, etc. are all religions or religious beliefs. Many of the people who hate religion are just practicing their own form of religion, whether they know it or not.
The irony is the atheistic Left is trying to attract in lots and lots of "brown and black" people from Latin America and Africa, somewhat forgetting that most of these folks are way more religious than the average American. Christians from Africa are quite devout, as are Muslims from that region. Most of Latin America is devout Catholics and are bringing their faith and practices with them.
This whole import-immigrants-to-vote-Democratic is going to backfire big time, methinks.
Definitely. I have an article coming out soon in UnHerd about this very topic.
Well I don't disagree with you that Wokeism, gender ideology, astrology, New Age spirituality but I think you do need to specify that because in USA anyway, discussion of religion is really a code word for Christianity. The Left doesn't actually think anything else is "religion". And for Islam, Buddhism, etc, they don't really see those as religions. They see those as "oh how cute, those little marginalized inferior people have their own cultures. Let's pretend we give a shit by "respecting" to virtue signal what great, open-minded, tolerant people we are.".
As someone who is currently in graduate school for religious studies, these are issues I think about a lot. It is true that the word “religion” in America has historically referred to Protestant Christianity.
In fact, wokeism is essentially an offshoot of certain Protestant denominations. Puritans, Quakers, Anabaptists, and other denominations in the northern colonies all eventually became absorbed into what is now called Unitarianism, and woke ideology stems much from certain Unitarian teachings that basically influenced much of educated culture in New England.
And yes, the left often has the patronizing tone toward non-white people and beliefs. It’s clear that they don’t see Muslims as having real beliefs, which is why all the liberal white people were shocked when Muslim parents came to protest gender ideology being taught in schools. And why liberals always say Christianity is patriarchal but avoid discussing patriarchy in Islam. And why liberal white people like black churches and black pastors even when saying they hate Christians.
Good points.