The former U.S. ambassador and daughter of the music industry’s ‘Black Godfather’ discusses grief, grace, and her radical response to a shocking crime.
This was such a beautiful interview despite the grim topic of her mothers death. I loved her reframing of the tragedy and victimhood. She’s incredible!
Conservatives, don't be put off by the reference to Nicole Avant supporting Obama. Sarah is 100% correct that this is a beautiful interview with an incredible and fascinating subject. It's not political, and I loved it.
Unless Americans stop using political labeling of people, we will never get out of the hateful confrontation we are in now as a country and as a people. I am equally disgusted by generalizations like "All Democrats are ...." and "All Republicans are...". There are good and bad people among both groups, time to remind people about it. As a proud independent voter, I promised myself to never join either party or judge people based on their party identification alone.
It would be easier not to lump all Democrats together if those in Congress didn't vote in a block on virtually every bill. That said, there are a variety of people voting for politicians of each party, so I agree they shouldn't all be lumped together as if they thought alike. That's also true of males, females, rich, poor, middle class, ethnic and religious groups, etc., all of which are made up of individuals with a broad spectrum of outlooks. The worst offender in this regard is Biden, who says to African-Americans, if you don't vote for me, "you ain't black."
I can't click "Like" because I don't want to give the impression that I "like" the corruption of Title IX to include men.
But I like that you pointed out the fact that the entire Democrat party voted to eradicate the definition of "woman" as an "adult human female" and replace it with "anybody who says they're a woman including a dude with a dick in a dress."
Well I certainly didn't post it because Ilike what that the Dem/Soc did. I posted it to show all of them voted for this disgusting, immoral cause enabling men to participate and bully women in sports. That is exactly what they will do, bully women.
And I thought those scum bags Dem/Socs were feminists. They wouldn't lie to us, would they?
That does not mean all democrats support that decision. Republican legislators have voted for anti abortion bills with no exceptions and open carry gun laws with no restrictions. Most Republicans don’t support those. The point that she makes in the article is “Don’t speak for me. You don’t know what I believe.”
That Biden's claim was bad, but it stands pretty close to Trump's claim that Jews who vote Democrat hate Israel and their religion or that Mexico send us rapists. Every politician is guilty of this sin.
Trump's comment on Jews was overly broad, although there seems to be a lot of antisemetic sentiment among Dems lately. As to the Mexican rapists, I suggest you read up on the high percentage of women and girls that are sexually assaulted on their way to the southern US border.
If Joe Biden and the Democrats that voted for him don't care about the drugs being trafficked at the border, the sex trade in children and the rapes of border crossers, why on earth should anyone lose sleep over these issues. We're outed voted and so what will be will be. It will rest on the consciences of Democrats - not me.
Let's not get into the bickering match, those aren't helpful to anyone. I am going to skip Trump's well-known references to the good people on both sides after Charlottesville march or Trump's own history with women.
"This arrogance of society—you don’t get to be the 20-year-old white girl to talk about defund the police. Who are you to say that? What are you talking about, by the way? There are so many people in neighborhoods—in black neighborhoods, white neighborhoods, whatever—they want order"
This.^^^^^
Who are you, children, to wave your manicured fingers for what youarecluelessabout? "Idiots" sums it up.
BLM was a pack of virtue signaling fakes playing at revolution against "the man" who were, themselves privileged to the hilt. Some were paid and angry. Some had quite some criminal records.
Scary to read. She can again become a “winner” if her husband or her children are killed. Or maybe her children will become such winners if they kill or rape her? God forbid
Great story of how she found it within herself to forgive.
That MSNBC person commenting that there has been "no progress" for Blacks In America is Joy Reid, no doubt. What Joy Reid and her producers know is there are a whole lot of people out there that actually listen to her hateful garbage and are capitalizing in it.
I live in the area where every other yard has a sign Black Lives Matter. All these wealthy white liberals voted to defund police, despite evidence that lawlessness hurts poor black neighborhoods the most. It all stopped when lawlessness spilled into their neighborhoods. Now they all are for more funds to police. This is what I call white privilege of ignorance.
During that time, 81% of black working class people did not want to defund the police. I thought, I have more in common with the black working class than I do with white middle class people! It shows that it's a luxury belief not shared by ordinary people who have to live with the results.
Well, this sort of proves the point that there has been "no progress" for blacks in America. They vote Democrat. Democrats like to fuck the blacks whenever they can to keep them poor, desperate and in need of their paternalistic help. To the extent that Democratic policies are involved in the lives of blacks, then it is true, there has been "no progress" for blacks...
THG. The way it's written, it reads to me like you live in a wealthy white liberal voting neighborhood, and every other yard has a Black Lives Matter sign. That has not much of a ring of truth to it, in my experience. Maybe a little bit exaggerated? Why? We already know them.
I fully embrace her forgiveness of the criminal who committed the hateful deed. Simultaneously I fully advocate for all of us old people to use firearms to cancel the advantages of the criminal young.
Forgiveness is not absolution. Forgiveness is freeing oneself from bitterness and vengeance and acting resolutely in the face of an injustice to do what is in our own power to blunt the effects of the injustice and make sure we do not propagate bitterness and vengeance into the world. We have a responsibility to make sure that offenses against us to not become our offenses against others. Matthew 6:14-15.
I always find it hard to remember that forgiveness is not absolution, because our society has framed it that way for a long time. And yet most of my experiences with "forgiving" people are exactly the way she described: refusing to allow anger at someone's behavior to affect my life any longer.
I don't agree. Forgiveness as presented by Christians is often tantamount to a measure of absolution. I think Christians have done a tremendous disservice to society by pushing one of the most pernicious beliefs on the world in the name of "compassion".
Some people don't like using the word forgiveness. Okay, it's hard. But how about using repentance instead? Not repenting for the offense but repenting for the shame induced reactions to the offense, repenting for the spillover of the offense to others, and a host of other negative emotions that diminish our effectiveness?
It is okay to seek justice. Justice can reduce the consequences of the offense. It's not okay to seek vengeance or even harbor vengeful emotions. Vengeance magnifies the consequences of the offense.
I started out with low expectations based on the information that Nicole Avant was an Obama supporter and fundraiser. But irrespective of her politics, Nicole is an amazing woman who had great parents. Bari always does a top notch job of bringing out the soul of her guests, and this was a thoroughly enjoyable listen. I'm only sorry Nicole didn't use her dad's title, You're Fucking Welcome, for her book. If you're not sure you whether you want to hear this interview, do yourself a big favor and listen. You'll likely find you have more in common with Ms. Avant than you would have guessed.
She is exactly right. Many times in life I felt very sorry for myself, until I understood that forgiveness is not a permission for the perpetrators' acts, it is a permission for myself to move on. My life became so much better since. My mother was killed on the pedestrian crossing by a heavily drugged teenage driver who then fled and left my mom die in the gutter. I spent years in the prison of victimhood over it. It ruined my life and didn't do any good for me. I applaud her for courage and strength.
Through grit, hard work, determination and an indomitable spirit, MS Avant's father became a music mogul. That can't be true! The left portrays all black's as victims, oppressed by the evil whites. Is MS Avent sure it was a white Jew saw who potential in her father and mentor him?
The left tells me all whites are racists and all Jews are evil money grubbing swine. Also through hard work MS Avent's father overcame horrible obstacles to become a success. This can't be true because to a leftist work is a four letter word.
This article has to be fiction, not just fiction but fantasy fiction.
According to the left, whites would never let her father become a success. The ever senile Joe says we want to put them back in chains. So how can this wonderful story be true?
Wow. More voices like that, raised a n unison, might help. Look, I KNOW that I was born on third base - hell, halfway down the third base line - but I’ve had times when things were bad for me and I always knew that by just having a job, a roof over my head, and parents who loved me that I had it made.
It is a daily struggle for me, as a Christian, to embrace forgiveness. Ms. Avant has not condoned the murder of her mother-clearly, that is a sin. However, in order to move forward and not continue the victimization, she needs to forgive. The late NYPD Officer Steven McDonald (1957-2017) forgave the young man, 15 year old Shavod Jones who shot him resulting in McDonald's paralysis from the neck down. The two never met but Jones did call him once to apologize; he died from a motorcycle accident four days after he was paroled. For the remainder of his life McDonald preached the power of forgiveness His wife was pregnant at the time of the shooting and I believe his son is now an NYPD officer.
These people are an inspiration and I pray to be able to exhibit a scintilla of their character.
This was a stunningly beautiful interview with tremendous heart and meaning for us all. The Avant family, and the legacy of Nicole’s parents and grandparents lives on. This is a very valuable teaching tool for overcoming tremendous challenges and hardship with the values of grace, humility, gratitude, love and hope. Nicole is such a beautiful person, and it was such a joy to listen though the subject matter was difficult.
“I want you to have this attitude of being a triumphant person.” And being a triumphant person does not mean that you escaped through life with no negativity. Being triumphant means you overcome. That means to have a triumph, you have to go through a trial. You have to go through a tribulation."
This article misuses the word "forgive" in a deceptive and dangerous way. If a guest in my home unintentionally breaks a prized family heirloom so it is irreparable, I can, after a few moments of shock and unexpressed anger, try to forgive them.
If a group of Hamas terrorists invade a small village and deliberately rape, mutilate, and slaughter infants, children, women, and men as they did on October 7th. Then no, I will not "forgive" them. Of course, life goes on, and we must all live in the present. But I will never bastardize the word "forgive" or pretend I "forgive" those evil monsters in any sense of the word. Let them all roast in the proverbial Hell.
Maybe read about father Ubald's work in Rwanda. We knew each other. He passed away a few years ago, but even now he inspires many to think of forgiveness in a different way.
I'm sorry your friend died. But some crimes, some attacks are completely unforgivable, Just as down will never be up and men will never be women,, I will not bastardize the English language by changing the use of pronouns nor the meaning of key concepts like "forgiveness." As I said before, we can psychologically move on, but when heinous acts are committed, we must never forgive nor forget. And that's my final word on the subject.
I don’t understand this connotation of forgiveness. I admire Ms. Avant’s ability to put aside the idea of being a victim, to move beyond corrosive hate, to avoid obsessing about a past crime against her family. What she has done is very difficult and a good example for everyone. But forgiveness is something that the perpetrator must request, with contrition, acknowledgement of the damage caused, and a commitment to act differently. I didn’t see where the murderer did that or requested her forgiveness. I see incidents in the news where a crime victim immediately “forgives” a perpetrator without any contact with that person. Even worse, I see people who were not a victim in an incident, offering their forgiveness, without any acknowledgement that the perpetrator has any regrets at all—that forgiveness must involve two people committing to making the future different. That is how forgiveness worked for Jesus Christ, the most prominent advocate of forgiveness in all of history. It is not just about forgetting or moving on. Forgiveness is about redemption. Sadly, victims—even those who discard victimhood—cannot do it by themselves.
That was my first reaction, too. But she clarifies what she means by that. It's more that she forgives herself for not thinking about this garbage every day. She mourned. If the murderer died tomorrow, she would simply say "good riddance" or maybe something a little more direct. But she won't let it define her or taint her memories of her mother. In that way, it's strength, not a biblical concept.
I appreciate this interview - a heck of a lot more than the maudlin mumbling about Octavia Butler today. This is a person with great inner strength, someone the younger generation should know about and respect.
I thought Butler sounded pretty remarkable too. The author of the pice, not so much. Plus if the topic you are writing about is people with prophetic insight I really want to hear about that person, not read your resume.
If "foregiveness" in this interview means forgiving herself, then I agree with your point. But I didn't read that into this. It seemed that both she and the interviewer were speaking of conventional foregiveness of the perpetrator. Perhaps I missed that current. I certainly agree about your observation of the disappointing Butler article. It fully accepts that we are enduring an environmental catastrophe, with no acknowledgement of the many ways that enivronmental conditions have improved over the last 50-60 years, particularly in affluent (more capitalist!) countries. And that's not denying the existence or possible negative effects of climate change--just suggesting that it perhaps won't be as unavoidably catastrophic as some predict.
Well, we're coming out of an Ice Age, long-term, as well as the Little Ice Age, short-term. I hardly think 1-2C either way falls under the category of catastrophe. It's been much warmer and much colder in the past.
And the evidence this climate change (the climate is always changing) is related to CO2 is specious at best. We're just getting out of an El Nino, so it should be a little warmer than last year. The scary hockey stick graphs are pure fiction - much has been written about Michael Mann's fraud and "tricks". RCP 8.5, which is the basis of most of the panic, is fiction at its worst.
The real problem is the trillions being thrown away on unreliable sources of energy, while most of Asia takes over our industries and pumps out more CO2 than ever before. At some point, our energy grid will start to fail - even sooner if we're forced to drive unreliable electric cars and install inferior heat pumps.
But then she has clearly redefined "forgiveness" in this case. She has taken indifference towards the perpetrator as a mark of having forgiven him. It rings hollow in this instance.
I don’t agree forgiveness should be dependent on the perpetrator. That just drags you more deeply into their story by awaiting contrition that may never come. Forgiveness perhaps is not the only word to use to describe what Nicole was able to do to move on. There was also acceptance for the act she could not change and releasing control to a higher power.
Outstanding; you got There first: "forgiveness has nothing to do with condoning, excusing, trying to understand a behavior."
Actually, it has everything to do with those things, so:
"change your definition of forgiveness."
Like Humpty Dumpty? I don't know that the English language has a word for that which Ms Avant did, but I wonder how many missed a frankly gut-wrenchingly beautiful essay because of an important word in the title having been "redefined." I highly doubt that I would have read it, had it not been Saturday with a misbehaving hip joint.
It was an excellent interview and I’m glad I read it. Nicole Avant found a way not to be consumed by hate, despite a hateful act that stole her Mother’s life. She did not allow evil to overtake her, and it was in part due to her own Mother’s love for life, and Nicole’s hunger to honor that. Nicole’s Mom was a Christian w/ a deep love of Christ and it’s apparent she passed a baton onward to Nicole that has also been passed down through the generations to many for the last 2,000 years - and our common humanity is kinder, more compassionate and yes, forgiving, because of it.
Below is Bible verse Jaqueline Avant had her daughter Nicole as a child, first memorize (Philippians 1:11):
“May you always be doing those good, kind things which show that you are a child of God, for this will bring much praise and glory to the Lord.”
I agree but I am not a Christian. I admire her ability to put things aside for her own well being and life. That's a rare and impressive act. However, forgiveness is a multi-step process which starts with a request and includes taking responsibility, true remorse, repair and a promise to not repeat. Those things did not happen here. And my belief goes a step further - it isn't anyone's business to forgive something that happened to someone else. For example, the Pope forgiving Nazis for the holocaust. Only those murdered can provide forgiveness and because the victims are dead the murderers will never be forgiven. Thus, murder is an unforgiveable act. I was in a group therapy session once and a woman was completely broken because "I can't forgive my son's murderer". When my turn came, I told her my view that it wasn't her business to forgive her son's murderer. The woman changed before my eyes - like the weight of the world had just been taken off her shoulders. She had been revictimized over the years by well meaning but misguided people prodding her to "forgive" something that she couldn't.
Dev, your interpretation of forgiveness is not the Christian definition of forgiveness. Nicole is a Christian, so her version is different than yours.
Forgiveness is not an option for Christians, in fact to be a Christian one MUST forgive. Forgiveness in Christianity is a form of submit to Christ and fellow believers. This passage come directly after The Lord’s Prayer in the NT:
“For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses”
What you have cited is the necessity of forgiveness, not the circumstances that make it feasible. Do you think the Heavenly Father forgives those who never ask for forgiveness nor repent for their actions? I’ve seen no place in Scripture where that is deemed possible. Asking for forgiveness and comprehending the damage one has done, and the distance that sin creates between a human and God, or between two humans, are crucial to redemption. I think Dev’s concept of forgiveness is well-supported in Christian thought.
I’m only talking about Nicole Avant, a Christian. What I cited pertains to her and anyone else who professes to be a Christian. I’m not saying it’s easy to do. That is partly what is extraordinary about her story.
Dev is talking (it appears) from the POV of the murderer, and not Nicole. The murderer can also ask for forgiveness, and be granted it, if he is a believer. That of course doesn’t change his life sentence.
As a Christian, I believe that Jesus died for all of humanities sins. God wants us to be mentally and emotionally healthy, and forgiveness is part of that. This does not mean any endorsement or agreement with abusers or people who’ve victimized others. I think Nicole makes that clear when in her interview she says “forgiveness has nothing to do with condoning, excusing, trying to understand a behavior. I don’t give a shit about him at all.”
I take it as akin to Jesus telling us to pray for our enemies and bless those who curse you. It's about being obedient to God and not the status of the other person's soul.
Very astute. When our kids hurt another, we'd tell them to ask forgiveness, but it was dependent upon not just their sincerity, but change in behavior. My heart goes out to Ms. Avant and her family. Young, white, useful idiot liberals certainly contribute to the problem, but BLM was started and run by blacks.
Amen! Love the sentiment. Spread it far & wide. I especially relate to her mom saying that to triumph you must have adversity. That’s the stuff of a meaningful life.
This was such a beautiful interview despite the grim topic of her mothers death. I loved her reframing of the tragedy and victimhood. She’s incredible!
Conservatives, don't be put off by the reference to Nicole Avant supporting Obama. Sarah is 100% correct that this is a beautiful interview with an incredible and fascinating subject. It's not political, and I loved it.
Unless Americans stop using political labeling of people, we will never get out of the hateful confrontation we are in now as a country and as a people. I am equally disgusted by generalizations like "All Democrats are ...." and "All Republicans are...". There are good and bad people among both groups, time to remind people about it. As a proud independent voter, I promised myself to never join either party or judge people based on their party identification alone.
It would be easier not to lump all Democrats together if those in Congress didn't vote in a block on virtually every bill. That said, there are a variety of people voting for politicians of each party, so I agree they shouldn't all be lumped together as if they thought alike. That's also true of males, females, rich, poor, middle class, ethnic and religious groups, etc., all of which are made up of individuals with a broad spectrum of outlooks. The worst offender in this regard is Biden, who says to African-Americans, if you don't vote for me, "you ain't black."
The Dem/Soc in the house voted 100% to let trans males participate in women's sports.
I can't click "Like" because I don't want to give the impression that I "like" the corruption of Title IX to include men.
But I like that you pointed out the fact that the entire Democrat party voted to eradicate the definition of "woman" as an "adult human female" and replace it with "anybody who says they're a woman including a dude with a dick in a dress."
Thanks, Dems. See you in November.
Well I certainly didn't post it because Ilike what that the Dem/Soc did. I posted it to show all of them voted for this disgusting, immoral cause enabling men to participate and bully women in sports. That is exactly what they will do, bully women.
And I thought those scum bags Dem/Socs were feminists. They wouldn't lie to us, would they?
That does not mean all democrats support that decision. Republican legislators have voted for anti abortion bills with no exceptions and open carry gun laws with no restrictions. Most Republicans don’t support those. The point that she makes in the article is “Don’t speak for me. You don’t know what I believe.”
That Biden's claim was bad, but it stands pretty close to Trump's claim that Jews who vote Democrat hate Israel and their religion or that Mexico send us rapists. Every politician is guilty of this sin.
Trump's comment on Jews was overly broad, although there seems to be a lot of antisemetic sentiment among Dems lately. As to the Mexican rapists, I suggest you read up on the high percentage of women and girls that are sexually assaulted on their way to the southern US border.
If Joe Biden and the Democrats that voted for him don't care about the drugs being trafficked at the border, the sex trade in children and the rapes of border crossers, why on earth should anyone lose sleep over these issues. We're outed voted and so what will be will be. It will rest on the consciences of Democrats - not me.
Let's not get into the bickering match, those aren't helpful to anyone. I am going to skip Trump's well-known references to the good people on both sides after Charlottesville march or Trump's own history with women.
Yep. Agree. I read it and was quite impressed. Common sense and honest talk.
"This arrogance of society—you don’t get to be the 20-year-old white girl to talk about defund the police. Who are you to say that? What are you talking about, by the way? There are so many people in neighborhoods—in black neighborhoods, white neighborhoods, whatever—they want order"
This.^^^^^
Who are you, children, to wave your manicured fingers for what youarecluelessabout? "Idiots" sums it up.
BLM was a pack of virtue signaling fakes playing at revolution against "the man" who were, themselves privileged to the hilt. Some were paid and angry. Some had quite some criminal records.
Scary to read. She can again become a “winner” if her husband or her children are killed. Or maybe her children will become such winners if they kill or rape her? God forbid
Great story of how she found it within herself to forgive.
That MSNBC person commenting that there has been "no progress" for Blacks In America is Joy Reid, no doubt. What Joy Reid and her producers know is there are a whole lot of people out there that actually listen to her hateful garbage and are capitalizing in it.
I live in the area where every other yard has a sign Black Lives Matter. All these wealthy white liberals voted to defund police, despite evidence that lawlessness hurts poor black neighborhoods the most. It all stopped when lawlessness spilled into their neighborhoods. Now they all are for more funds to police. This is what I call white privilege of ignorance.
During that time, 81% of black working class people did not want to defund the police. I thought, I have more in common with the black working class than I do with white middle class people! It shows that it's a luxury belief not shared by ordinary people who have to live with the results.
Well, this sort of proves the point that there has been "no progress" for blacks in America. They vote Democrat. Democrats like to fuck the blacks whenever they can to keep them poor, desperate and in need of their paternalistic help. To the extent that Democratic policies are involved in the lives of blacks, then it is true, there has been "no progress" for blacks...
That's changing. There were lots of MAGA hats on black people at a recent Chicago City Council meeting.
I just spoke with a Black woman who told me casually that she had written off her parents b/c they were Trump supporters. I admit I was surprised.
THG. The way it's written, it reads to me like you live in a wealthy white liberal voting neighborhood, and every other yard has a Black Lives Matter sign. That has not much of a ring of truth to it, in my experience. Maybe a little bit exaggerated? Why? We already know them.
I fully embrace her forgiveness of the criminal who committed the hateful deed. Simultaneously I fully advocate for all of us old people to use firearms to cancel the advantages of the criminal young.
Forgiveness is not absolution. Forgiveness is freeing oneself from bitterness and vengeance and acting resolutely in the face of an injustice to do what is in our own power to blunt the effects of the injustice and make sure we do not propagate bitterness and vengeance into the world. We have a responsibility to make sure that offenses against us to not become our offenses against others. Matthew 6:14-15.
I always find it hard to remember that forgiveness is not absolution, because our society has framed it that way for a long time. And yet most of my experiences with "forgiving" people are exactly the way she described: refusing to allow anger at someone's behavior to affect my life any longer.
I don't agree. Forgiveness as presented by Christians is often tantamount to a measure of absolution. I think Christians have done a tremendous disservice to society by pushing one of the most pernicious beliefs on the world in the name of "compassion".
Amen!
Some people don't like using the word forgiveness. Okay, it's hard. But how about using repentance instead? Not repenting for the offense but repenting for the shame induced reactions to the offense, repenting for the spillover of the offense to others, and a host of other negative emotions that diminish our effectiveness?
It is okay to seek justice. Justice can reduce the consequences of the offense. It's not okay to seek vengeance or even harbor vengeful emotions. Vengeance magnifies the consequences of the offense.
I started out with low expectations based on the information that Nicole Avant was an Obama supporter and fundraiser. But irrespective of her politics, Nicole is an amazing woman who had great parents. Bari always does a top notch job of bringing out the soul of her guests, and this was a thoroughly enjoyable listen. I'm only sorry Nicole didn't use her dad's title, You're Fucking Welcome, for her book. If you're not sure you whether you want to hear this interview, do yourself a big favor and listen. You'll likely find you have more in common with Ms. Avant than you would have guessed.
She is exactly right. Many times in life I felt very sorry for myself, until I understood that forgiveness is not a permission for the perpetrators' acts, it is a permission for myself to move on. My life became so much better since. My mother was killed on the pedestrian crossing by a heavily drugged teenage driver who then fled and left my mom die in the gutter. I spent years in the prison of victimhood over it. It ruined my life and didn't do any good for me. I applaud her for courage and strength.
Very sorry to hear this and glad to hear you achieved some peace. God bless you and thank you for your comment.
I’m sorry for your loss!
This is so sad. I think your response was very human. What a tremendous and tragic loss. I’m so sorry.
Through grit, hard work, determination and an indomitable spirit, MS Avant's father became a music mogul. That can't be true! The left portrays all black's as victims, oppressed by the evil whites. Is MS Avent sure it was a white Jew saw who potential in her father and mentor him?
The left tells me all whites are racists and all Jews are evil money grubbing swine. Also through hard work MS Avent's father overcame horrible obstacles to become a success. This can't be true because to a leftist work is a four letter word.
This article has to be fiction, not just fiction but fantasy fiction.
According to the left, whites would never let her father become a success. The ever senile Joe says we want to put them back in chains. So how can this wonderful story be true?
Wow. More voices like that, raised a n unison, might help. Look, I KNOW that I was born on third base - hell, halfway down the third base line - but I’ve had times when things were bad for me and I always knew that by just having a job, a roof over my head, and parents who loved me that I had it made.
Attitude of gratitude. Gotta have it.
It is a daily struggle for me, as a Christian, to embrace forgiveness. Ms. Avant has not condoned the murder of her mother-clearly, that is a sin. However, in order to move forward and not continue the victimization, she needs to forgive. The late NYPD Officer Steven McDonald (1957-2017) forgave the young man, 15 year old Shavod Jones who shot him resulting in McDonald's paralysis from the neck down. The two never met but Jones did call him once to apologize; he died from a motorcycle accident four days after he was paroled. For the remainder of his life McDonald preached the power of forgiveness His wife was pregnant at the time of the shooting and I believe his son is now an NYPD officer.
These people are an inspiration and I pray to be able to exhibit a scintilla of their character.
Wow
This was a stunningly beautiful interview with tremendous heart and meaning for us all. The Avant family, and the legacy of Nicole’s parents and grandparents lives on. This is a very valuable teaching tool for overcoming tremendous challenges and hardship with the values of grace, humility, gratitude, love and hope. Nicole is such a beautiful person, and it was such a joy to listen though the subject matter was difficult.
“I want you to have this attitude of being a triumphant person.” And being a triumphant person does not mean that you escaped through life with no negativity. Being triumphant means you overcome. That means to have a triumph, you have to go through a trial. You have to go through a tribulation."
"You're Fucking Welcome!"
This article misuses the word "forgive" in a deceptive and dangerous way. If a guest in my home unintentionally breaks a prized family heirloom so it is irreparable, I can, after a few moments of shock and unexpressed anger, try to forgive them.
If a group of Hamas terrorists invade a small village and deliberately rape, mutilate, and slaughter infants, children, women, and men as they did on October 7th. Then no, I will not "forgive" them. Of course, life goes on, and we must all live in the present. But I will never bastardize the word "forgive" or pretend I "forgive" those evil monsters in any sense of the word. Let them all roast in the proverbial Hell.
Maybe read about father Ubald's work in Rwanda. We knew each other. He passed away a few years ago, but even now he inspires many to think of forgiveness in a different way.
I'm sorry your friend died. But some crimes, some attacks are completely unforgivable, Just as down will never be up and men will never be women,, I will not bastardize the English language by changing the use of pronouns nor the meaning of key concepts like "forgiveness." As I said before, we can psychologically move on, but when heinous acts are committed, we must never forgive nor forget. And that's my final word on the subject.
I don’t understand this connotation of forgiveness. I admire Ms. Avant’s ability to put aside the idea of being a victim, to move beyond corrosive hate, to avoid obsessing about a past crime against her family. What she has done is very difficult and a good example for everyone. But forgiveness is something that the perpetrator must request, with contrition, acknowledgement of the damage caused, and a commitment to act differently. I didn’t see where the murderer did that or requested her forgiveness. I see incidents in the news where a crime victim immediately “forgives” a perpetrator without any contact with that person. Even worse, I see people who were not a victim in an incident, offering their forgiveness, without any acknowledgement that the perpetrator has any regrets at all—that forgiveness must involve two people committing to making the future different. That is how forgiveness worked for Jesus Christ, the most prominent advocate of forgiveness in all of history. It is not just about forgetting or moving on. Forgiveness is about redemption. Sadly, victims—even those who discard victimhood—cannot do it by themselves.
That was my first reaction, too. But she clarifies what she means by that. It's more that she forgives herself for not thinking about this garbage every day. She mourned. If the murderer died tomorrow, she would simply say "good riddance" or maybe something a little more direct. But she won't let it define her or taint her memories of her mother. In that way, it's strength, not a biblical concept.
I appreciate this interview - a heck of a lot more than the maudlin mumbling about Octavia Butler today. This is a person with great inner strength, someone the younger generation should know about and respect.
I thought Butler sounded pretty remarkable too. The author of the pice, not so much. Plus if the topic you are writing about is people with prophetic insight I really want to hear about that person, not read your resume.
If "foregiveness" in this interview means forgiving herself, then I agree with your point. But I didn't read that into this. It seemed that both she and the interviewer were speaking of conventional foregiveness of the perpetrator. Perhaps I missed that current. I certainly agree about your observation of the disappointing Butler article. It fully accepts that we are enduring an environmental catastrophe, with no acknowledgement of the many ways that enivronmental conditions have improved over the last 50-60 years, particularly in affluent (more capitalist!) countries. And that's not denying the existence or possible negative effects of climate change--just suggesting that it perhaps won't be as unavoidably catastrophic as some predict.
Climate change is BS it’s just another way that the Democrats, the UN and the WEF will continue to gaslight us out of our hard earned taxes
Well, we're coming out of an Ice Age, long-term, as well as the Little Ice Age, short-term. I hardly think 1-2C either way falls under the category of catastrophe. It's been much warmer and much colder in the past.
And the evidence this climate change (the climate is always changing) is related to CO2 is specious at best. We're just getting out of an El Nino, so it should be a little warmer than last year. The scary hockey stick graphs are pure fiction - much has been written about Michael Mann's fraud and "tricks". RCP 8.5, which is the basis of most of the panic, is fiction at its worst.
The real problem is the trillions being thrown away on unreliable sources of energy, while most of Asia takes over our industries and pumps out more CO2 than ever before. At some point, our energy grid will start to fail - even sooner if we're forced to drive unreliable electric cars and install inferior heat pumps.
But then she has clearly redefined "forgiveness" in this case. She has taken indifference towards the perpetrator as a mark of having forgiven him. It rings hollow in this instance.
I don’t agree forgiveness should be dependent on the perpetrator. That just drags you more deeply into their story by awaiting contrition that may never come. Forgiveness perhaps is not the only word to use to describe what Nicole was able to do to move on. There was also acceptance for the act she could not change and releasing control to a higher power.
Outstanding; you got There first: "forgiveness has nothing to do with condoning, excusing, trying to understand a behavior."
Actually, it has everything to do with those things, so:
"change your definition of forgiveness."
Like Humpty Dumpty? I don't know that the English language has a word for that which Ms Avant did, but I wonder how many missed a frankly gut-wrenchingly beautiful essay because of an important word in the title having been "redefined." I highly doubt that I would have read it, had it not been Saturday with a misbehaving hip joint.
It was an excellent interview and I’m glad I read it. Nicole Avant found a way not to be consumed by hate, despite a hateful act that stole her Mother’s life. She did not allow evil to overtake her, and it was in part due to her own Mother’s love for life, and Nicole’s hunger to honor that. Nicole’s Mom was a Christian w/ a deep love of Christ and it’s apparent she passed a baton onward to Nicole that has also been passed down through the generations to many for the last 2,000 years - and our common humanity is kinder, more compassionate and yes, forgiving, because of it.
Below is Bible verse Jaqueline Avant had her daughter Nicole as a child, first memorize (Philippians 1:11):
“May you always be doing those good, kind things which show that you are a child of God, for this will bring much praise and glory to the Lord.”
Absolutely! My quibble was with the word choice!
Listening was even more powerful.
There are two reasons why I don't do the audio: My right ear and (particularly) my left ear. I may give it a shot anyway. Thanks,
I agree but I am not a Christian. I admire her ability to put things aside for her own well being and life. That's a rare and impressive act. However, forgiveness is a multi-step process which starts with a request and includes taking responsibility, true remorse, repair and a promise to not repeat. Those things did not happen here. And my belief goes a step further - it isn't anyone's business to forgive something that happened to someone else. For example, the Pope forgiving Nazis for the holocaust. Only those murdered can provide forgiveness and because the victims are dead the murderers will never be forgiven. Thus, murder is an unforgiveable act. I was in a group therapy session once and a woman was completely broken because "I can't forgive my son's murderer". When my turn came, I told her my view that it wasn't her business to forgive her son's murderer. The woman changed before my eyes - like the weight of the world had just been taken off her shoulders. She had been revictimized over the years by well meaning but misguided people prodding her to "forgive" something that she couldn't.
Dev, your interpretation of forgiveness is not the Christian definition of forgiveness. Nicole is a Christian, so her version is different than yours.
Forgiveness is not an option for Christians, in fact to be a Christian one MUST forgive. Forgiveness in Christianity is a form of submit to Christ and fellow believers. This passage come directly after The Lord’s Prayer in the NT:
“For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses”
Matthew 6:14-15
What you have cited is the necessity of forgiveness, not the circumstances that make it feasible. Do you think the Heavenly Father forgives those who never ask for forgiveness nor repent for their actions? I’ve seen no place in Scripture where that is deemed possible. Asking for forgiveness and comprehending the damage one has done, and the distance that sin creates between a human and God, or between two humans, are crucial to redemption. I think Dev’s concept of forgiveness is well-supported in Christian thought.
I’m only talking about Nicole Avant, a Christian. What I cited pertains to her and anyone else who professes to be a Christian. I’m not saying it’s easy to do. That is partly what is extraordinary about her story.
Dev is talking (it appears) from the POV of the murderer, and not Nicole. The murderer can also ask for forgiveness, and be granted it, if he is a believer. That of course doesn’t change his life sentence.
As a Christian, I believe that Jesus died for all of humanities sins. God wants us to be mentally and emotionally healthy, and forgiveness is part of that. This does not mean any endorsement or agreement with abusers or people who’ve victimized others. I think Nicole makes that clear when in her interview she says “forgiveness has nothing to do with condoning, excusing, trying to understand a behavior. I don’t give a shit about him at all.”
I take it as akin to Jesus telling us to pray for our enemies and bless those who curse you. It's about being obedient to God and not the status of the other person's soul.
Very astute. When our kids hurt another, we'd tell them to ask forgiveness, but it was dependent upon not just their sincerity, but change in behavior. My heart goes out to Ms. Avant and her family. Young, white, useful idiot liberals certainly contribute to the problem, but BLM was started and run by blacks.
I loved this interview so much too. The Avant family are an American treasure.
Can’t wait to read that book. “You’re Fucking Welcome.” I’m still chuckling. Thank you both.
Amen! Love the sentiment. Spread it far & wide. I especially relate to her mom saying that to triumph you must have adversity. That’s the stuff of a meaningful life.