Their concept of God and religion is so off base it's astounding. The last line - anwhere you celebrate life is a church - is the icing on the cake. Almost all religions start with the belief that we live in a fallen world. Religion is, broadly speaking, all about how life is meaningless in comparison to eternity, that God is beyond our understanding, and the only way to achieve salvation, enlightment, etc., is to humble yourself and live according to spiritual guidelines that will to some degree dictate your personal behavior.
Or it can just be about how there's just really great energy in the room.
I wonder how many go there to get laid. I didn't see any old farts, just a bunch of spaced out young, good looking loons showing as much of their fit bodies as they possibly could. I didn't see anybody wear moomoos.
Where was Gweneth Paltrow demonstrating her vaginal steam bath?
Esalen is famous for its coed nude hot tub overlooking the sea. It's apparently in a very beautiful place. Richard Feynman, among others, wrote about his experience there.
That's been my experience at the one or two nude beaches I have accidentally visited here and there. A lot of places if you go up the coast far enough, bathing suits start disappearing.
All of California. Heck, all of the Pacific Coast. It's one of the most beautiful natural landscapes in the entire world, with one of the mildest and most pleasant climates ('till you get inland at least).
Esalen has deep spiritual significance to me. Until the 1960's, it was a rather rundown resort called Big Sur Hot Springs, with the famous tubs perched on a cliff high above the surf. My parents took the family there when I was 12 and in the tubs I saw a naked woman for the first time. The Goddess.
Fit bodies, bikinis, people getting together looking for a higher power, and California. Of course sex was bound to rear its ugly head. I was wondering about the same thing - less the Gwyneth Paltrow demo - but didn't want to be the first to write it down.
I don't know your religion but mine (a real one) doesn't start from your premise nor see life as meaningless, awaiting eternity. I'd believe in sauna spirit and foam noodle meditation if mine were like the one you describe.
I'm a Christian. Last I checked, my religion is real too. What is your religion? I was speaking generally about most major religious so hard to be specific but yes, in general, every major religion recognizes that life involves great suffering, that it shouldn't be this way, and then offers a path on how to transcend that suffering by pointing to a higher power beyond our understanding and the concept of eternity
Clearly, you do not live in California or you'd be amused by this article as I am. It's like ALLL the ridiculous fads that have come and go to make money off the insecure, unhappy people who want an easy fix.
I'm afraid you are conflating cults, fads, and religions. That is a very simplistic way to look at these huge topics. And yet it is the hackneyed go-to statement from all atheists.
And I'm afraid you're wrong. Some things are quite simple and it takes intelligence and insightfulness to cut through the "iTs cOmPLICatED cAUse iM sMaRT!" nonsense.
How do you know I'm an atheist? I never stated/argued that. Did the other members tell you that's what you should say?
Hey, the 60’s had their communes. They were touted in the same language - hey, this is like, you know, a religious experience, man. Then as now, the whole point of religion is missed. Religion is the recognition that you are not the center of the universe and that by following the lessons learned eons before you showed up, you can tfind true fulfillment. What is portrayed in the piece is basically another age-old religion - the House of Me, Me, Me. If this helps these folks feel better, great. A religion it is not.
I was thinking recently about the value of confession, self-reflection, and the idea of sin in general. Religion provides a *moral* framework; rules like "thou shalt not steal"; that if you steal you either must confess it or go to Hell. That strongly-held belief did not stop everyone from stealing, but it stopped many people from doing so.
You watch these smash-and-grabs where dozens of people will all walk out of the store with handfuls of merchandise (and in some cases - eg the recent one in Seattle - will physically assault the cashiers). None of them have that moral guidance that they will go to Hell. And the other guideline we had in place - the rule of law - is not there anymore because none of them will ever be arrested, and in fact theft under $900 has essentially been decriminalized in California. Without those punishments -- the perceived eternal punishment in Hell for thievery or the fear of a more immediate punishment with prison, the argument could be made that stealing is absolutely just fine. Which is why you see such a dramatic rise in theft.
The concept of sin = eternal punishment (also virtue = reward in afterlife) managed to keep our society afloat because it codified morals. It also encouraged self-reflection -- there's a new movement among many therapists to essentially stigmatize self-reflection as "gaslighting yourself". And while certainly one should not wallow too heavily in guilt, a priest encouraging some level of guilt/self-reflection around sin, but then providing an escape from that guilt through assigning good deeds/penance -- this is far better on a societal level than a therapist telling you to simply move on/feel good about yourself, maybe giving you a pill to help you feel better. It might be worse for some specific people in the short term, but a collective understanding of sin is superior on a social level.
I agree. As I was reading your comment early on I was thinking it stimulates reflection which leads to self-reflection. I would also saw that codification of SOME morals is the rule of law concept. But I say some morals because I do not think morality can be legislated, mandated, dictated or otherwise impose, rather it comes from within.
Human evolution and the fight for survival hardwired mankind with a moral code. Proof of the existence of both the Soul and the transcendent is informed by the reality that violation of human moral reason on both the personal and societal level leads to pain, angst and suffering. Morals are lines of demarcation beyond which there is only inhuman consequence and chaos. One cannot live there and remain human. All religious and legal codes spring from realization of this fact. You are absolutely correct.
I would say churches who amend the rules, by which I mean the universal understandings, to maintain relevance and/or increase the coffers are dying. And I am okay with that.
Example: My nephew goes to a Lutheran church and the pastor there just proclaimed that, in order to be a member of that church, you must go to catechism class every week for four years, not the two years the previous pastor required. This is a man-made rule, not God-made. If you're arguing over the church carpet, you're going to the wrong church.
What's wrong with catechism for four years to understand the faith? Your nephew can decide to be part of the church or not. I think many people don't even understand the religion they are part of and that is unfortunate.
Religion isn’t about what you do while gathered with the faithful; it’s about what you do and how you behave when you disperse. That’s what I’d really like to know about the people represented here.
This is a good point. But to be fair, I don't think everyone who goes to a traditional church goes out and does good deeds afterward, either. I remember touring the old North Church in Boston and learning that the private booths in the front were purchased by prominent families who decorated them to show off their wealth while the common folk worshipped in the back. Seems like some things never change.
U have been to the Old North Church too and was likewise startled by that. But apparently it was common in ye olde England. But that is surprising in American churches so yes things have changed. IMO the strongest churches these days are pretty small. That egalitarian crap is falling by the wayside.
The data is in: membership in a religious group guarantees nothing. Nonetheless, there is a lot to be said for turning our attention away from the esoteric practices of the faithful and their often strange belief systems (whatever the religion) and towards the conduct of their practitioners. The Christian tradition embeds the magnificent paradox that its founder (Jesus I mean, not St. Paul) repeatedly and insistently told people that membership in the right religious community assured a person of exactly nothing, and that praying in public is not praying at all.
Actually the data is far from in. That is why it is referred to as faith. I agree with your take on the teachings of Jesus Christ except for the praying in public thing. Rather I think that it is the sincerity of the prayer, whether public or private, that matters.
Regarding prayer, fair enough. I was thinking of the timeless words: "When you pray, don’t be like the hypocrites who love to pray publicly on street corners and in the synagogues where everyone can see them. I tell you the truth, that is all the reward they will ever get." These words echo in my head whenever I hear someone advertising his religiosity. But you're correct: that's not the same as "praying in public". You're right to call out the discrepancy.
biggest mobsters killers and drug dealers all made big noise in sinnersgog , religion is bs AS people change the rules to suit their taste. Either it is gods word or it's not , can't have it both ways . Until this so called god comes back and changes the rules
The question isn't whether religious membership GUARANTEES anything. It is whether it facilitates moral improvement and the transmission of values to future generations. You won't find guarantees of that anywhere; you just try to improve the odds.
Feeling happy is nice. Sometimes it might even be a byproduct of religious life. But it’s incidental to the purpose of religion, which is to orient life towards a good that transcends feelings. Our vocabulary for speaking about that objective is almost always inadequate, though people say “God” as a kind of shorthand, and typically the inquiry then devolves into something worse than useless. Science has given us many wonderful things, but it has almost completely destroyed our ability to talk coherently about these subjects. Science deals with things, and it has nothing whatsoever to say about the good that transcends the material world.
The people represented here (you/I/we/us) are fighting to create a truth/fact based American national dialogue. Living inside an enforced lie in either family or nation makes one ill. Truth is literally a kind of medicine. Good journalists are healers. Liars are a kind of spiritual/emotional/societal plague. We're all working hard on getting well. But, there are no emotional, spiritual or intellectual giants here.
This article/report on young people (and they are our young people) struggling for a grounded spirituality and a sane path forward is actually a report on us all: "..we hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their CREATOR with certain unalienable Rights..."
I'm having my students read Alisdair MacIntyre's great book, After Virtue. In describing the social context of the "emotivism" into which modern ethics has devolved, he identifies three main character types: the Rich Aesthete, the Manger, and the Therapist, all of whom work in service to what each individual feels is good.
(The lapse into emotivism he attributes to a kind of moral calamity so deep and thorough we no longer have the language to describe what exactly has been lost.)
That book was first published in 1981, and I was thinking we need to add one or two new character types. This article aligns well with one candidate I had been considering: the Influencer.
Welcome, gentlefolk, to the First Church of Brand-Name ME (tm).
Herein lies the paradox - I am so enlightened/superior that I need no rules but you, unenlightened peasant, do and I know what they should be. That is what all those folks on here criticizing criticism in the comments are doing - trying to impose their rules.
Rules are fine and necessary--imagine what happens when nobody stops at red lights--but too many bad rules make people flee traditional religions. "God hates fags" is repulsive, yet remains the credo of at least one Baptist church. "Women aren't fit to serve as priests" remains universal in Catholicism. I'm sure we can find dozens more examples if we dig, but you get my point.
Do I find the people in this article silly and self-centered? Yes. Are they doing anything wrong? Not only no but Hell No. They are as entitled to call themselves a religion as any Protestant, Catholic, Jew, Buddhist, or Druid. They aren't harming anyone, so if they want to scream naked in a salt bath, who am I to complain?
Evidently you don't realize that the "Westboro Baptist Church" is a tiny outfit in Topeka. Its few members are largely the members of one family. And younger family members are leaving it.
Conflating WBC with Baptists in general is like saying that all Democrats think we need to depopulate the planet.
Baptists in general are not my favorite people. They tend to hate my belief system quite a lot. But I'm not prepared to keep my mouth shut while you smear them all with the existence of WBC.
Don’t be so sensitive, I didn’t smear “Baptists.” My family has many and they’re good people.
I smeared Westboro by name because it’s a hateful outfit—I know them better than you do. Its view of gays is not dissimilar to many Evangelical churches who say the same. Or Pat Robertson, for that matter.
My comment was fair and not a broad brush of any brand of religion.
You're right, I didn't name Westboro, my mistake. I wrote this: "God hates fags" is repulsive, yet remains the credo of at least one Baptist church."
You knew I meant Westboro. Why you jumped to the conclusion I was"smearing Baptists with a broad brush" with that statement, I have no idea. I wrote it that way because I don't know every congregation in the Baptist conventions, so "at least one" was appropriate.
If I wanted to broadly smear any particular religion, I know how to do it. It was not appropriate except for the Catholic insistence that women are unfit to be priests. I believe women are fit to do anything.
Apparently we both know WBC people, you from living there, me from having a good friend who dated one of the daughters and was a sheriff's deputy who had to respond whenever the crazy asserted itself. Lot of stories . . .
It certainly seems that way. I see some very fringe connections to classical religion here, but I'm not sure how much merit there is in the argument of "young search for a higher power". I think they are missing something. I'm not smart enough or educated enough on classical religions or sociology to comment further LOL.
I think this story is consistent with the mission of The Free Press, and the criticisms are rather missing the point. Religion/spirituality in American life has been a recurring theme. This particular story challenged my personal goal of keeping an open mind when I read this sort of stuff, because my knee-jerk reaction would normally be to dismiss it as privileged narcissism. So, I kept an open mind while reading it...and still concluded it was privileged narcissism. And, no, Jesus was not a self-help guru--He didn't say "love yourself."
The critics of pieces like this seem to conflate “journalism” and “political reporting”. Writing can be relevant and culturally significant without nary a mention of Trump or Biden.
No. The critics aren’t complaining about the author but rather the subjects and the perception from the editorial staff that they somehow have cultural significance.
Perhaps that’s your criticism, but it’s clear that several commenters are looking solely for political pieces. Also, many subscribers believe they do have cultural significance. So, it’s your right to complain, but everyone else has as much right to praise. The beauty of free speech 🤷🏻♀️
I’m actually complaining about the author. She thinks this is an important story. But we know better. It’s an old story. But she’s too young to know that. People have been doing this crap since California became part of the zeitgeist in the ‘50’s.
I agree that people are searching for meaning. I do think it’s a group of lost people with money searching in the wrong place…. But I also know that God can use anything and anyone to draw someone closer to Him. I pray that happens for people who attend these events.
I hope you are right. But they don't seem to be looking for a religion that will ask them to have to change themselves. So I don't have a ton of hope that they will actually find the right path.
Hmmm. That’s interesting. I’ve never read it like “love yourself” is a stand alone but rather “as you” to indicate we have a human condition to love ourselves before others (selfishly most times) so it’s a commandment to put our self aside and look after and care for others. I’ve always understood it that way. I can see how it might be read differently.
Ohanalani, I personally don’t believe “love yourself” is intended to be a “stand alone” …
Matthew 22:37-40, “You shall love the Lord God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like unto it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets”
Again in Leviticus 19:18, “Love your neighbor as yourself” and regarded as second of the two “great” commandments.
My takeaway from these (and other) scriptures is that if we are suppose to love our neighbors unconditionally, then we should love ourselves the same.
As with forgiveness. Often it is easier to forgive others while struggling to forgive ourselves.
When I saw the title of the article I thought the exact same thing - why is this on The Free Press? I couldn't even bring myself to read the whole thing. This was a miss by TFP. Waste of time.
This is not an instruction to love yourself. Jesus tells us to *deny* ourselves. The verse you are quoting is an acknowledgment that we *already love ourselves* and an exhortation for us to turn that love and regard we naturally have for ourselves outward to others.
Some subset of these people will realize their heart craves a solid religion and will find their way to one, Christian or otherwise, and that is good news.
Right? I kept thinking, "This is hilarious! It's like a scene from an ironic comedy, or at least an SNL skit" from back when SNL was reliably funny. But I kept reading to see if there was something more and concluded my first take was pretty much on the money. What's even more funny is "influencers" and DJs (the guys who play other people's music!!!) are considered celebrities. Good stuff, Maynard!!
You have the sense that this is privileged narcissism...Because at the end of the day it IS privileged narcissism...
That, and people acting on the principle that a fool and their money is soon parted.
I applaud the sense of calm and connection that these individuals achieve; it keeps them from getting involved in the "take all" culture that sweeps our urban landscapes with store robberies and car-jackings
The repetition on these pages of sounds like Kumbaya and HUmnnnnn that settled past generations, though, just proves what P. T. Barnum understood...for 5 cents admission, one could see the amazing Egress over here.
Except, inflation has hit, and it's now $5.00 to join the queue.
Also, the purpose of Jesus was about much more that just being the best person he could be. How silly, but sounds about right for the Episcopal Church these days.
This verse does not instruct us to love ourselves, rather it acknowledges that we already love ourselves, that doing so is our natural state. The instruction is to try and love *other people* the way you already love yourself. This is a lifelong endeavor because God knows exactly how hard it is for us to love others as much as ourselves. Christ specifically invites us not to love ourselves, but to *deny ourselves*, pick up our cross, and follow Him.
Brian -- good point. I like hearing about different communities and am TRYING to be open-minded but I would agree that "privileged narcissism" seems apt.
I always appreciate Olivia’s writing because she does a beautiful job of describing what she sees without letting bias seep in. It was an interesting piece. That being said, I’ve been accused of being in a cult more than once because I’m Catholic...by people who would probably love this place. I’m happy for anyone who finds God, wherever that may be, but if anything has cult potential it’s a place like this. It seems to appeal to people because they get spiritual encouragement without any commitment, work, or sacrifice. I’m definitely biased here, I know, but I can’t imagine a church service where I don’t feel equal parts comforted and convicted. Personally, I feel better in an environment where I’m encouraged to do better rather than this “you do you” attitude.
I’ve noticed lately how many even secular voices have picked up on our innate tendency as humans to find meaning and purpose ONLY in giving our lives away to others…a deeply Judeo/Christian idea. (And perhaps other religions too) I too appreciated this piece and think you nailed it with “comforted and convicted” characterization. We humans are complicated and paradoxical creatures and unless we pursue Truth(which levels with us about who we are created to be in God’s image), we tend to just pursue the hell of our own capricious feelings.
True, but they don't charge up front to attend and giving is voluntary. There is a lot of pressure to give. I was playing music at a Christian conference in Holland and a guest speaker from Benny Hinn's church in Florida took the offering in the typical Evangelical manner, and afterward the Dutch minister apologized to the congregation and explaned to the speaker that it's not done that way here.
"Secular Sabbath" sort of says it all I think. I too like ORs writing but mostly because I like her style. I think her bias is positivity which is perceived as open-mindedness.
It gives me hope, because they will eventually bore of this and will continue to seek God. Seems to me the best thing I can do is pray that they will land on their knees in the right place.
I’m not sure Olivia knows how old her audience is here on the FP. What she writes about is as old as the hills of Big Sur. Big deal. We’ve seen this before - and no, secular whatever with screaming and moaning ain’t no new wave.
I agree; sadness was my prevailing emotion while reading. This “church” seems the inevitable result of the fetishizing of “self care” and “self love.” How could I possibly find God if the thought be that He is made in my image and not the inverse-that God is some kind of slave to my likes, dislikes, and imagination. What a tragic view of life that would be.
I don’t understand the hate for this article, TFP has been exploring the phenomenon of people searching for a higher power since the beginning. This is just another article showing a different side of that theory. One option is to simply not read it. The other option is to consider what they are getting at. TFP was created because they wanted people to consider more points of view. If that is beyond your abilities, then maybe this isn’t a place for you.
I find it interesting but also very sad. We are not called to be the best version of humans, we’re called to be like Christ. I pray for anyone on a spiritual journey, that they finally find the Way, the Truth, and the Light. No one can come to the Father except through the Son.
If you feel that is a productive use of your brainpower and time. There’s a lot of batshit a crazy happening in this world. Mocking it does nothing to fix it or counter it.
That’s a comedian and a satire site. TFP is meant to be real journalism. Go snark over there. Criticism of the article and criticism of the people the article is about is not the same thing.
I just do not get the criticism of criticism thing. There is after all a place to comment. In the same manner that you suggest people just not read the article if it does not appeal to them, you could just not read the comments that do not appeal to you. But your insistence that TFP is about real journalism is actually, I think, the source of some of the criticism - that this is in fact not journalism in the sense of "news" rather it is a something more suited to a "Lifestyle" section as they once were called. And as I understand it those were not considered journalism.
Not hating the article. It was fascinating in the extent of its secularness. Spirituality is not bad. No rules is cool. But, my God at least, was not reflected in the comments of attendies
"No one can come to the Father except through the Son."
Only if you're Christian, which many of us are not. Jews deal with God directly, no son or priestly middleman needed. It's one of the things I like about my religion: no gatekeepers. Plus, lox and bagels.
So my understanding...Protestants go directly to God. We believe in a triune God, so yes, we need to accept that Christ was the fulfillment of Scripture (OT Scripture). Jews believe the Messiah/Savior/Son has not yet come. So not sure if they also would pray to the Messiah when that occurs in their faith...
Catholics, too, go to God though also through a priest for confession as did Jews in the OT when they could not enter the most holy of holies in the temple as individuals. They needed priests to present sacrifices for them/approach YHWH for them. Maybe I’m missing something else you’re saying? I love lox and bagels, too!
I’m Catholic. We do not “go to God through a priest”. The sacrament of Confession is for the forgiveness of sins, not some telephone line you have to use or God won’t hear you. You can pray to God whenever and wherever you want to, and God hears you each and every time. In the sacrament of Confession what you get is a sort of guarantee that you’ve been forgiven, but that doesn’t make it the only way God can forgive you. God can do anything, so He can forgive you if you are sincerely sorry and ask for forgiveness. Under the teachings of the Catholic Church going to Confession guarantees forgiveness (Jesus said so in the Bible, they didn’t just invent it) and an infusion of Grace into your soul. My personal take on the sacrament is that it is early psychotherapy. I put it into the same category as Jewish and Muslim dietary laws, ie, they benefit people in ways that don’t yet exist at the time they started. The dietary laws kept people from getting sick at a time when people didn’t know how to process pigs and hogs so that their meat wasn’t infested with parasites. Confession gives humans the kind of solace that only comes from telling another human your worst transgressions out loud and how sorry you really are and then having that other human tell you that s/he forgives you. Early psychotherapy. You gotta get it out or else it will eat away at you. The best way to get it out is tell another person, face-to-face, out loud. At some level Jesus and the early Founders knew this and just made it a sacrament. I can tell you there is no better solace than that which comes from Confession. I’ve been in therapy and I’ve gone to Confession. Confession works and it’s free.
My apologies that my wording did not read well for you. My point was to let the person know that as Christians (Protestant and Catholic) we don’t have a gatekeeper for God, we have a Savior who IS God and we have sacraments like Catholic confession and communion to connect us with God in different ways. Protestants do not use priests for confession though we may go to our pastors for confession and guidance. I’m a therapist and understand wholly the power of going to others for help. God is still the very best resource.
Such a lovely comment. I'm pretty sure Jesus also said not to be judgmental of others - I see that very much as God's right. And He's certainly been patient with me on my own journey and was there for me when I least deserved it.
Are people hating on the article itself (or TFP for publishing it), or just making fun of the subjects of the article? Those aren't quite the same thing.
That's called "nutpicking" and it doesn't prove anything. Some minority of people mentioned California, the vast majority didn't, and you're taking that minority and calling it representative of everyone. The reason no one referenced/commented on Mexico is because the vast majority of comments are unrelated to your claim
No. The reason that no one is referencing Mexico and the other locations, as was mentioned in the article, is because that would detract from the Free Press discussion board ethos of bashing California, liberals, liberal enclaves, liberal products, etc.
The other commentor brought up that the article mentioned Mexico in an attempt to claim commentors were also focusing on that. But they were wrong. I am right.
If I have an issue with this it is that it seems very narrow. If this were a thing popping up in cities across the country, I would find it more relevant. But this seems so specific, that I can't really relate to it. More like a local news story. But I don't think it shouldn't exist as an article. Just not one I felt was very interesting or useful.
These are the kinds of people that our youth are watching online and being influenced by. Trends that are shaping culture matter, regardless of how ridiculous we think they are.
I am so grateful to live in Alabama. I eat barbecue, watch college football, watch the Atlanta Braves, drink beer, go to church, go the the lake, hang out with wife and kids at the pool, go to a concert every now and then. I will take the bumpkin life any day of the week.
I disagree. Some of them (maybe a lot) will find what they are looking for, at least temporarily, which is a consensual fling with fame until growing bored and moving on to the next playground of wealthy phoniness. The veneer of spirituality is meant to hide their narcissism and hedonism. Like every new age cult, reports of scandalous behavior within the group are not far off. And soon after that the People magazine stories of victims struggling to break free from the “cult”.
Rich secular anglos flirting with Jewish mysticism, eastern religions, climate worship, big tech, drugs, weird desert festivals...They need to listen to a little Lynyrd Skynyrd and spend some time in a black Baptist church
Hallelujah. I suggest starting with Simple Man. I have not been in such a church since I was a kid but the experience informed me and sticks with me to this day.
Agree! Arriving at anyone’s house without food or drink to share is rude and then make it a food that is offensive….unbelievable! May her spiritual guide be Miss Manners!
I have worked with churches over the past year that are slowly dying. The people who attend do so more out of a force of habit than out of any conviction. The only new people attending are people leaving other places, but no one is being brought to any "conversion." This article was fascinating as it shows the primary drivers:
People are very self-absorbed in their pursuit of meaning. I can be a good person where I want, doing what I wish while setting the parameters for me.
Most are single with little responsibilities to others.
They have money and can take care of themselves. Who needs anyone or, god forbid, responsible for anyone?
There are no intellectual materials that read, inspire, or change behaviors.
We live in a world where it's my religion, and as more people under 40 only love and care about me, the churches I work with will slowly die, and belief as we know it will be a minority passion. Thanks for having an article that shows the evolution or devolution of our culture.
That is so on point. I am working a mainline denominaton and you can be whatever you want to be, who are they to judge especially if you are part of a rainbow community.
Yes. I'm an inspector; I get a limited look-in to all manner of churches. Lotta rainbowism with the occasional free food -- and the whole thing crumbling.
Churches have gone all-in on the short game, not realizing that they're essentially prioritizing planting their seeds on shallow ground.
If you make the church experience as convenient as possible, to the point where it's essentially entertainment with free coffee and doesn't require anything of the congregants, you'll get more people, at least initially.
From there, some churches never go any deeper. In those cases congregants might stick around, but they just as easily might realize that both the coffee and music is better outside of church than inside.
Alternately, if a church does lure people in with coffee and entertainment but eventually starts providing the meat of the Word, a lot of people who were essentially tricked to come to church will balk and leave.
With more orthodox/traditional churches there's a reputation, so those who seek it already know that it is to be taken seriously. So there's a selection bias there.
More fundamentally, though, a church that doesn't demand change from you soon makes itself obsolete, because if you don't need to change anything about yourself to follow God, then what makes church necessary?
100% .. at least in Catholicism, there is a very strong movement pushing back against the "dumb-ing down of the faith." That is where the energy is. It's amazing how many younng families are attending the Latin Mass and digging into Thomas Aquinas. The social justice wing of the church has been a disaster.
Many churches seem to have fallen to the idea that they want to recruit people in as great a number as possible. That's been the mainline Evangelical position, as well as a number of other "successful" religions such as Latter-Day Saints (Mormon). However, trying to grow the faith as much as possible inevitably leads to molding the faith around trends and the prevailing secular culture. Even if that was once a valuable trait, going to a church for 90 minutes is *never* going to be as stimulating as 20 minutes of TikTok videos, a TED talk, and some pornography. So why try to compete?
Therefore, there's something to be said for self-segregation and selecting to be part of a certain religion because its values align with yours. Those who wish to live a more traditional lifestyle can choose to do so, and it will attract others who have similar values.
I think religion is in transition. I think too many churches have introduced the concepts of their own destruction. The result of which is it is some of the churches which are dying not belief in God.
The giant clue was “Esalen”. People never tire of snake oil. It’s so much easier to lie around in a sauna and take a sound bath than it would be to “do the work” on oneself and in one’s community.
And it’s fascinating how “Eastern religions” are legitimized despite the obvious discriminatory nature of the caste system, by which one’s birth into certain families condemns you to a life of penury and prejudice (based on Hinduism’s ideas of karma and reincarnation). But that’s not “dogma”, no...
The very traditional Catholic Church I attend is packed for five Masses each Sunday. It’s filled with young single people, young families, and an ever-expanding crop of children. God is right there, on the altar, in the tabernacle, in the hearts of parishioners. Gloria Patri, et Filio, et Spiritui Sancto, sicut erat in principio, et nunc, et semper, et in saecula saeculorum. Amen.
This is very encouraging! We recently switched to a vibrant parish like this, but almost any listen to Bishop Barron or Fr Mike Schmitz and you’ll hear them grieve over the “nones” and how many are leaving The Church.
The Eternal Truths of the Faith and the Ancient Traditions draw the young like magnets, but sadly, many parishes only offer watered-down versions of the Faith, and no one is drawn to that.
And this year is doing Catholic Catechism in a Year! Both it and Bible in a Year are EXCELLENT.
Bishop Robert Barron, now of the diocese of Winona-Rochester also in MN (but was in San Fran. before that) is a Catholic treasure. Started Word on Fire Ministry and has super intellectually- and philosophically- rigorous teaching and resources. Please check him out both on YouTube and at WordonFire. Org
Yes, but there is clearly a yearning for something spiritual. Pity it is for something that makes no intellectual or real spiritual demands. The optimist in me wonders whether some of these people may, eventually, gravitate to something with actual substance.
It's amazing how few people really understand Christianity and dismiss or even disparage it when it's actually already everything they say they want and seek.
And I didn't either for most of my life so I get it. I grew up Protestant, was then agnostic, then atheist. Then I had a spiritual experience when I was dying in a hospital and knew God, the One, was real, that we are indeed all connected as One, and that God is what he said he was in the Christian and Judaic traditions: The I Am. Love. And you can be with that Love at any time simply by transcending/subjugating ego (fear, selfishness, anger, hatred) and choosing it. That actually gets you most of the new age and the eastern traditions more or less. And yes, He's all around us and with us all the time.
But later I had another experience that showed me that Jesus is also real, the knowable form of God, and that He is in fact the Way - both the gateway for a return to Oneness/Love and "the Way" as in the Tao for how to be. His whole message in his day on earth was to set aside rules and dogma for the only two that really matter, which are actually the same thing - choose Love over ego. "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law..." He asks us to choose Love over ego on our own, but what about when we don't / the past? He graces us where we can't or didn't through His own sacrifice and forgiveness of our foibles, and in so doing also shows us how to be loving to others through forgiveness. That's what communion (reconciliation) is all about - literally and physically returning to the state of Oneness that is Love.
I ultimately eventually chose Catholicism because despite its human failings, in its purest form it's the only teaching that matched what I was independently shown and experienced. It honors free will to choose Love (this is also true of a couple of Protestant sects), encourages you to do that through word, thought and deed, and recognizes reconciliation for what it is - return to connection in Love as Love to All That Is: God/all creation/each other. It also sees people the way I know from person experience that God sees us - as profoundly loved (not as Luther's dung heaps). Also the rules they do set out are really about living into love - that does take some self control and some limitations - it's not anything goes, which might be a damper on the young people's idea of a good time.
There are many ways of knowing but for the seekers, it's actually pretty simple. Any choice of Love is choosing Love/Oneness/God... the Christian Way, Jesus, just helps us live into Love and to return to Love/Oneness/God fully.
Can I be honest? I think maybe it's the remedial souls that have to have the intervention experiences. I always figured I must have just been deemed sufficiently close to spiritually hopeless. :) But I did learn we're all really really loved. And that I always was, all of us were, long before any of that happened.
The Church of the Self-centered. Nice.
Their concept of God and religion is so off base it's astounding. The last line - anwhere you celebrate life is a church - is the icing on the cake. Almost all religions start with the belief that we live in a fallen world. Religion is, broadly speaking, all about how life is meaningless in comparison to eternity, that God is beyond our understanding, and the only way to achieve salvation, enlightment, etc., is to humble yourself and live according to spiritual guidelines that will to some degree dictate your personal behavior.
Or it can just be about how there's just really great energy in the room.
Or green energy in the room!!
Hey, this is California. Need I say more?
I wonder how many go there to get laid. I didn't see any old farts, just a bunch of spaced out young, good looking loons showing as much of their fit bodies as they possibly could. I didn't see anybody wear moomoos.
Where was Gweneth Paltrow demonstrating her vaginal steam bath?
California, geeze!
Esalen is famous for its coed nude hot tub overlooking the sea. It's apparently in a very beautiful place. Richard Feynman, among others, wrote about his experience there.
I'm sure it's quite beautiful, till a bunch of overweight 60 & 70 year olds start disrobing.
That's been my experience at the one or two nude beaches I have accidentally visited here and there. A lot of places if you go up the coast far enough, bathing suits start disappearing.
It was a beautiful place, as is all of Big Sur.
All of California. Heck, all of the Pacific Coast. It's one of the most beautiful natural landscapes in the entire world, with one of the mildest and most pleasant climates ('till you get inland at least).
Big Sur is beautiful but Esalen is as crazy as it used to be except much more expensive now.
Esalen has deep spiritual significance to me. Until the 1960's, it was a rather rundown resort called Big Sur Hot Springs, with the famous tubs perched on a cliff high above the surf. My parents took the family there when I was 12 and in the tubs I saw a naked woman for the first time. The Goddess.
Fit bodies, bikinis, people getting together looking for a higher power, and California. Of course sex was bound to rear its ugly head. I was wondering about the same thing - less the Gwyneth Paltrow demo - but didn't want to be the first to write it down.
I think someone is jealous....
I don't know your religion but mine (a real one) doesn't start from your premise nor see life as meaningless, awaiting eternity. I'd believe in sauna spirit and foam noodle meditation if mine were like the one you describe.
"A religion that does not require the sacrifice of all things, never has power sufficient to produce the faith necessary unto life and salvation."
**Abraham and Issac have entered the chat**
okay - made me laugh out loud
I'm a Christian. Last I checked, my religion is real too. What is your religion? I was speaking generally about most major religious so hard to be specific but yes, in general, every major religion recognizes that life involves great suffering, that it shouldn't be this way, and then offers a path on how to transcend that suffering by pointing to a higher power beyond our understanding and the concept of eternity
Don’t take the bait.
Nailed it.
Yes....best to go with the most depressing, nihilistic, fear-driven take possible in order to get those indulgences.
Clearly, you do not live in California or you'd be amused by this article as I am. It's like ALLL the ridiculous fads that have come and go to make money off the insecure, unhappy people who want an easy fix.
Don't live there anymore. Did for 10 years though, so my current and/or past state of residence is irrelevant.
What's so amusing? I don't find it any more amusing than people who believe in a mystical being in the sky without any evidence.
"Fads" start everywhere. Another "fad" that started in CA? Tech.
Yes, luckily for us there are no insecure, unhappy people who want an easy fix anywhere else in the country.
I'm afraid you are conflating cults, fads, and religions. That is a very simplistic way to look at these huge topics. And yet it is the hackneyed go-to statement from all atheists.
The difference between a cult and a religion? About 200 years.
And I'm afraid you're wrong. Some things are quite simple and it takes intelligence and insightfulness to cut through the "iTs cOmPLICatED cAUse iM sMaRT!" nonsense.
How do you know I'm an atheist? I never stated/argued that. Did the other members tell you that's what you should say?
Hey, the 60’s had their communes. They were touted in the same language - hey, this is like, you know, a religious experience, man. Then as now, the whole point of religion is missed. Religion is the recognition that you are not the center of the universe and that by following the lessons learned eons before you showed up, you can tfind true fulfillment. What is portrayed in the piece is basically another age-old religion - the House of Me, Me, Me. If this helps these folks feel better, great. A religion it is not.
No mention of service to others I notice. But I do agree that churches with man-made rules (enforcement and penalties) are dying out, as they should.
Disagree strongly. Rules keep society together.
I was thinking recently about the value of confession, self-reflection, and the idea of sin in general. Religion provides a *moral* framework; rules like "thou shalt not steal"; that if you steal you either must confess it or go to Hell. That strongly-held belief did not stop everyone from stealing, but it stopped many people from doing so.
You watch these smash-and-grabs where dozens of people will all walk out of the store with handfuls of merchandise (and in some cases - eg the recent one in Seattle - will physically assault the cashiers). None of them have that moral guidance that they will go to Hell. And the other guideline we had in place - the rule of law - is not there anymore because none of them will ever be arrested, and in fact theft under $900 has essentially been decriminalized in California. Without those punishments -- the perceived eternal punishment in Hell for thievery or the fear of a more immediate punishment with prison, the argument could be made that stealing is absolutely just fine. Which is why you see such a dramatic rise in theft.
The concept of sin = eternal punishment (also virtue = reward in afterlife) managed to keep our society afloat because it codified morals. It also encouraged self-reflection -- there's a new movement among many therapists to essentially stigmatize self-reflection as "gaslighting yourself". And while certainly one should not wallow too heavily in guilt, a priest encouraging some level of guilt/self-reflection around sin, but then providing an escape from that guilt through assigning good deeds/penance -- this is far better on a societal level than a therapist telling you to simply move on/feel good about yourself, maybe giving you a pill to help you feel better. It might be worse for some specific people in the short term, but a collective understanding of sin is superior on a social level.
I agree. As I was reading your comment early on I was thinking it stimulates reflection which leads to self-reflection. I would also saw that codification of SOME morals is the rule of law concept. But I say some morals because I do not think morality can be legislated, mandated, dictated or otherwise impose, rather it comes from within.
My humble opinion on the morals question.
Human evolution and the fight for survival hardwired mankind with a moral code. Proof of the existence of both the Soul and the transcendent is informed by the reality that violation of human moral reason on both the personal and societal level leads to pain, angst and suffering. Morals are lines of demarcation beyond which there is only inhuman consequence and chaos. One cannot live there and remain human. All religious and legal codes spring from realization of this fact. You are absolutely correct.
I would say churches who amend the rules, by which I mean the universal understandings, to maintain relevance and/or increase the coffers are dying. And I am okay with that.
“Man-made”? I think you meant “God-made”.
Example: My nephew goes to a Lutheran church and the pastor there just proclaimed that, in order to be a member of that church, you must go to catechism class every week for four years, not the two years the previous pastor required. This is a man-made rule, not God-made. If you're arguing over the church carpet, you're going to the wrong church.
Agree on that.
What's wrong with catechism for four years to understand the faith? Your nephew can decide to be part of the church or not. I think many people don't even understand the religion they are part of and that is unfortunate.
Where is a 4-year catechism requirement listed in the Bible? That's what I mean by a man-made rule. See: Jesus v. Pharisees
Take a bite of the yogi, and you can be as a god, little g.
I blame Adam
Religion isn’t about what you do while gathered with the faithful; it’s about what you do and how you behave when you disperse. That’s what I’d really like to know about the people represented here.
This is a good point. But to be fair, I don't think everyone who goes to a traditional church goes out and does good deeds afterward, either. I remember touring the old North Church in Boston and learning that the private booths in the front were purchased by prominent families who decorated them to show off their wealth while the common folk worshipped in the back. Seems like some things never change.
U have been to the Old North Church too and was likewise startled by that. But apparently it was common in ye olde England. But that is surprising in American churches so yes things have changed. IMO the strongest churches these days are pretty small. That egalitarian crap is falling by the wayside.
The data is in: membership in a religious group guarantees nothing. Nonetheless, there is a lot to be said for turning our attention away from the esoteric practices of the faithful and their often strange belief systems (whatever the religion) and towards the conduct of their practitioners. The Christian tradition embeds the magnificent paradox that its founder (Jesus I mean, not St. Paul) repeatedly and insistently told people that membership in the right religious community assured a person of exactly nothing, and that praying in public is not praying at all.
Actually the data is far from in. That is why it is referred to as faith. I agree with your take on the teachings of Jesus Christ except for the praying in public thing. Rather I think that it is the sincerity of the prayer, whether public or private, that matters.
Regarding prayer, fair enough. I was thinking of the timeless words: "When you pray, don’t be like the hypocrites who love to pray publicly on street corners and in the synagogues where everyone can see them. I tell you the truth, that is all the reward they will ever get." These words echo in my head whenever I hear someone advertising his religiosity. But you're correct: that's not the same as "praying in public". You're right to call out the discrepancy.
We are in complete accord. I too admire and obey that teaching.
biggest mobsters killers and drug dealers all made big noise in sinnersgog , religion is bs AS people change the rules to suit their taste. Either it is gods word or it's not , can't have it both ways . Until this so called god comes back and changes the rules
The question isn't whether religious membership GUARANTEES anything. It is whether it facilitates moral improvement and the transmission of values to future generations. You won't find guarantees of that anywhere; you just try to improve the odds.
Obviously. Which is why I used that precise word in responding to Scott D's comment "I don't think *everyone* who goes..." That was my point.
If you mean identify with a certain religion, I am not sure about the data, but attending service makes for happier people: https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2019/01/31/religions-relationship-to-happiness-civic-engagement-and-health-around-the-world/#:~:text=People%20who%20are%20active%20in,than%20two%20dozen%20other%20countries.
Feeling happy is nice. Sometimes it might even be a byproduct of religious life. But it’s incidental to the purpose of religion, which is to orient life towards a good that transcends feelings. Our vocabulary for speaking about that objective is almost always inadequate, though people say “God” as a kind of shorthand, and typically the inquiry then devolves into something worse than useless. Science has given us many wonderful things, but it has almost completely destroyed our ability to talk coherently about these subjects. Science deals with things, and it has nothing whatsoever to say about the good that transcends the material world.
The people represented here (you/I/we/us) are fighting to create a truth/fact based American national dialogue. Living inside an enforced lie in either family or nation makes one ill. Truth is literally a kind of medicine. Good journalists are healers. Liars are a kind of spiritual/emotional/societal plague. We're all working hard on getting well. But, there are no emotional, spiritual or intellectual giants here.
This article/report on young people (and they are our young people) struggling for a grounded spirituality and a sane path forward is actually a report on us all: "..we hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their CREATOR with certain unalienable Rights..."
I'm having my students read Alisdair MacIntyre's great book, After Virtue. In describing the social context of the "emotivism" into which modern ethics has devolved, he identifies three main character types: the Rich Aesthete, the Manger, and the Therapist, all of whom work in service to what each individual feels is good.
(The lapse into emotivism he attributes to a kind of moral calamity so deep and thorough we no longer have the language to describe what exactly has been lost.)
That book was first published in 1981, and I was thinking we need to add one or two new character types. This article aligns well with one candidate I had been considering: the Influencer.
Welcome, gentlefolk, to the First Church of Brand-Name ME (tm).
They want to do what they want. They want no rules. Successful societies have rules. Why wouldn't religions have rules?
Herein lies the paradox - I am so enlightened/superior that I need no rules but you, unenlightened peasant, do and I know what they should be. That is what all those folks on here criticizing criticism in the comments are doing - trying to impose their rules.
You just described Gavin Newsome and Nancy Pelosi and everyone in the corporate media and Justice Dept.....
And here I thought I was being subtle. 😉
Rules are fine and necessary--imagine what happens when nobody stops at red lights--but too many bad rules make people flee traditional religions. "God hates fags" is repulsive, yet remains the credo of at least one Baptist church. "Women aren't fit to serve as priests" remains universal in Catholicism. I'm sure we can find dozens more examples if we dig, but you get my point.
Do I find the people in this article silly and self-centered? Yes. Are they doing anything wrong? Not only no but Hell No. They are as entitled to call themselves a religion as any Protestant, Catholic, Jew, Buddhist, or Druid. They aren't harming anyone, so if they want to scream naked in a salt bath, who am I to complain?
That same too many/bad rules thing is of even more significance in the government sphere. You can leave an odious church.
Yup! Much harder to leave an odious government than an odious church.
Like the hotel California you can never leave
Evidently you don't realize that the "Westboro Baptist Church" is a tiny outfit in Topeka. Its few members are largely the members of one family. And younger family members are leaving it.
Conflating WBC with Baptists in general is like saying that all Democrats think we need to depopulate the planet.
Baptists in general are not my favorite people. They tend to hate my belief system quite a lot. But I'm not prepared to keep my mouth shut while you smear them all with the existence of WBC.
Good Point.
No, actually, it wasn’t.
Don’t be so sensitive, I didn’t smear “Baptists.” My family has many and they’re good people.
I smeared Westboro by name because it’s a hateful outfit—I know them better than you do. Its view of gays is not dissimilar to many Evangelical churches who say the same. Or Pat Robertson, for that matter.
My comment was fair and not a broad brush of any brand of religion.
I lived for years in Topeka, so I absolutely know these people.
Not only did you NOT smear WBC by name, "remains the credo of at least one Baptist church" is very much smearing Baptists with a broad brush.
Like I said, I have no fondness for Baptists, so I'm not being "so sensitive." It was not a fair comment.
You're right, I didn't name Westboro, my mistake. I wrote this: "God hates fags" is repulsive, yet remains the credo of at least one Baptist church."
You knew I meant Westboro. Why you jumped to the conclusion I was"smearing Baptists with a broad brush" with that statement, I have no idea. I wrote it that way because I don't know every congregation in the Baptist conventions, so "at least one" was appropriate.
If I wanted to broadly smear any particular religion, I know how to do it. It was not appropriate except for the Catholic insistence that women are unfit to be priests. I believe women are fit to do anything.
Apparently we both know WBC people, you from living there, me from having a good friend who dated one of the daughters and was a sheriff's deputy who had to respond whenever the crazy asserted itself. Lot of stories . . .
Completely agree.
It certainly seems that way. I see some very fringe connections to classical religion here, but I'm not sure how much merit there is in the argument of "young search for a higher power". I think they are missing something. I'm not smart enough or educated enough on classical religions or sociology to comment further LOL.
The answer is 42. (Hitchhikers Guide to the Universe)
Brian, ‘The Church of the Self-centered’ - written by a Naive Writer Who Thinks All This Is New.
The 70s, redux.
Exactly what I was thinking. It takes being into yourself to a whole other level.
Arizona Bay.
I think this story is consistent with the mission of The Free Press, and the criticisms are rather missing the point. Religion/spirituality in American life has been a recurring theme. This particular story challenged my personal goal of keeping an open mind when I read this sort of stuff, because my knee-jerk reaction would normally be to dismiss it as privileged narcissism. So, I kept an open mind while reading it...and still concluded it was privileged narcissism. And, no, Jesus was not a self-help guru--He didn't say "love yourself."
The critics of pieces like this seem to conflate “journalism” and “political reporting”. Writing can be relevant and culturally significant without nary a mention of Trump or Biden.
No. The critics aren’t complaining about the author but rather the subjects and the perception from the editorial staff that they somehow have cultural significance.
Perhaps that’s your criticism, but it’s clear that several commenters are looking solely for political pieces. Also, many subscribers believe they do have cultural significance. So, it’s your right to complain, but everyone else has as much right to praise. The beauty of free speech 🤷🏻♀️
No...not on the Free Press discussion board, Micah...."Free Speech" is only for certain groups, ideas, etc...
Criticism is ipso facto free speech.
Sure. Unless it's directed at something YOU don't like. Then...it needs to be canceled.
So, the use of Latin does not make you sound smart, nor change that fact.
I’m actually complaining about the author. She thinks this is an important story. But we know better. It’s an old story. But she’s too young to know that. People have been doing this crap since California became part of the zeitgeist in the ‘50’s.
I agree that people are searching for meaning. I do think it’s a group of lost people with money searching in the wrong place…. But I also know that God can use anything and anyone to draw someone closer to Him. I pray that happens for people who attend these events.
I hope you are right. But they don't seem to be looking for a religion that will ask them to have to change themselves. So I don't have a ton of hope that they will actually find the right path.
Hey, Brian, He did say, “Love your neighbor as you love yourself” but I do get your point.
Hmmm. That’s interesting. I’ve never read it like “love yourself” is a stand alone but rather “as you” to indicate we have a human condition to love ourselves before others (selfishly most times) so it’s a commandment to put our self aside and look after and care for others. I’ve always understood it that way. I can see how it might be read differently.
Ohanalani, I personally don’t believe “love yourself” is intended to be a “stand alone” …
Matthew 22:37-40, “You shall love the Lord God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like unto it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets”
Again in Leviticus 19:18, “Love your neighbor as yourself” and regarded as second of the two “great” commandments.
My takeaway from these (and other) scriptures is that if we are suppose to love our neighbors unconditionally, then we should love ourselves the same.
As with forgiveness. Often it is easier to forgive others while struggling to forgive ourselves.
When I saw the title of the article I thought the exact same thing - why is this on The Free Press? I couldn't even bring myself to read the whole thing. This was a miss by TFP. Waste of time.
“Love your neighbor as you love yourself”….Matthew 22:39
This is not an instruction to love yourself. Jesus tells us to *deny* ourselves. The verse you are quoting is an acknowledgment that we *already love ourselves* and an exhortation for us to turn that love and regard we naturally have for ourselves outward to others.
Some subset of these people will realize their heart craves a solid religion and will find their way to one, Christian or otherwise, and that is good news.
Right? I kept thinking, "This is hilarious! It's like a scene from an ironic comedy, or at least an SNL skit" from back when SNL was reliably funny. But I kept reading to see if there was something more and concluded my first take was pretty much on the money. What's even more funny is "influencers" and DJs (the guys who play other people's music!!!) are considered celebrities. Good stuff, Maynard!!
The whole concept of “influencers” is ridiculous.
You have the sense that this is privileged narcissism...Because at the end of the day it IS privileged narcissism...
That, and people acting on the principle that a fool and their money is soon parted.
I applaud the sense of calm and connection that these individuals achieve; it keeps them from getting involved in the "take all" culture that sweeps our urban landscapes with store robberies and car-jackings
The repetition on these pages of sounds like Kumbaya and HUmnnnnn that settled past generations, though, just proves what P. T. Barnum understood...for 5 cents admission, one could see the amazing Egress over here.
Except, inflation has hit, and it's now $5.00 to join the queue.
Also, the purpose of Jesus was about much more that just being the best person he could be. How silly, but sounds about right for the Episcopal Church these days.
Jesus did say love thy neighbor as thyself. I doubt he would have said that if he did not want people to love themselves.
This verse does not instruct us to love ourselves, rather it acknowledges that we already love ourselves, that doing so is our natural state. The instruction is to try and love *other people* the way you already love yourself. This is a lifelong endeavor because God knows exactly how hard it is for us to love others as much as ourselves. Christ specifically invites us not to love ourselves, but to *deny ourselves*, pick up our cross, and follow Him.
BINGO!
Lol. Be the best person you can be. Naw
Brian -- good point. I like hearing about different communities and am TRYING to be open-minded but I would agree that "privileged narcissism" seems apt.
What did he say? Seems like a lot of Christians could use a refresher.
I always appreciate Olivia’s writing because she does a beautiful job of describing what she sees without letting bias seep in. It was an interesting piece. That being said, I’ve been accused of being in a cult more than once because I’m Catholic...by people who would probably love this place. I’m happy for anyone who finds God, wherever that may be, but if anything has cult potential it’s a place like this. It seems to appeal to people because they get spiritual encouragement without any commitment, work, or sacrifice. I’m definitely biased here, I know, but I can’t imagine a church service where I don’t feel equal parts comforted and convicted. Personally, I feel better in an environment where I’m encouraged to do better rather than this “you do you” attitude.
I’ve noticed lately how many even secular voices have picked up on our innate tendency as humans to find meaning and purpose ONLY in giving our lives away to others…a deeply Judeo/Christian idea. (And perhaps other religions too) I too appreciated this piece and think you nailed it with “comforted and convicted” characterization. We humans are complicated and paradoxical creatures and unless we pursue Truth(which levels with us about who we are created to be in God’s image), we tend to just pursue the hell of our own capricious feelings.
Let’s be honest, it’s offline tinder.
😂
An apt description.
God for those who can afford him.
There are a lot of organized Christian churches with that MO too. I don't care for those either.
True, but they don't charge up front to attend and giving is voluntary. There is a lot of pressure to give. I was playing music at a Christian conference in Holland and a guest speaker from Benny Hinn's church in Florida took the offering in the typical Evangelical manner, and afterward the Dutch minister apologized to the congregation and explaned to the speaker that it's not done that way here.
Very true. And your story made me giggle.
The longer I live, the more absurd the world appears.
Me too. But judging from things my grandparents said it has always been that way
"Secular Sabbath" sort of says it all I think. I too like ORs writing but mostly because I like her style. I think her bias is positivity which is perceived as open-mindedness.
Lynne, “perceived.”
What is fascinating choice of words ! I want to commit this phrase to memory, as it says so much
It gives me hope, because they will eventually bore of this and will continue to seek God. Seems to me the best thing I can do is pray that they will land on their knees in the right place.
I doubt they will land on anything. At the end of the day do I want them in my faith( or any faith) I think not they seem very disrespectful.
I’m not sure Olivia knows how old her audience is here on the FP. What she writes about is as old as the hills of Big Sur. Big deal. We’ve seen this before - and no, secular whatever with screaming and moaning ain’t no new wave.
A wasted article, in my opinion.
“... people will come to church, if it’s a place to be seen. “
This is all you need to know about these “churches”.
Yep-a church for narcissists.
They just seem so lost. Very sad.
I agree; sadness was my prevailing emotion while reading. This “church” seems the inevitable result of the fetishizing of “self care” and “self love.” How could I possibly find God if the thought be that He is made in my image and not the inverse-that God is some kind of slave to my likes, dislikes, and imagination. What a tragic view of life that would be.
Well, they are paying for the experience, so I suppose it has to be worthwhile. (sarcasm)
Very lost!
Though, frankly, there's at least one Christian church like that in almost every midsized (or larger) city in America.
I like how that's not the case at all at evangelical churches, especially in the South.
I don’t understand the hate for this article, TFP has been exploring the phenomenon of people searching for a higher power since the beginning. This is just another article showing a different side of that theory. One option is to simply not read it. The other option is to consider what they are getting at. TFP was created because they wanted people to consider more points of view. If that is beyond your abilities, then maybe this isn’t a place for you.
I find it interesting but also very sad. We are not called to be the best version of humans, we’re called to be like Christ. I pray for anyone on a spiritual journey, that they finally find the Way, the Truth, and the Light. No one can come to the Father except through the Son.
Be blessed everyone ✌🏼
And another option is to see the batshit crazy bullshit for what it is and mock it relentlessly.
If you feel that is a productive use of your brainpower and time. There’s a lot of batshit a crazy happening in this world. Mocking it does nothing to fix it or counter it.
Tell that to Jon Stewart. Or the Babylon Bee.
That’s a comedian and a satire site. TFP is meant to be real journalism. Go snark over there. Criticism of the article and criticism of the people the article is about is not the same thing.
I just do not get the criticism of criticism thing. There is after all a place to comment. In the same manner that you suggest people just not read the article if it does not appeal to them, you could just not read the comments that do not appeal to you. But your insistence that TFP is about real journalism is actually, I think, the source of some of the criticism - that this is in fact not journalism in the sense of "news" rather it is a something more suited to a "Lifestyle" section as they once were called. And as I understand it those were not considered journalism.
Productive enough for you to read and respond.
Not hating the article. It was fascinating in the extent of its secularness. Spirituality is not bad. No rules is cool. But, my God at least, was not reflected in the comments of attendies
"No one can come to the Father except through the Son."
Only if you're Christian, which many of us are not. Jews deal with God directly, no son or priestly middleman needed. It's one of the things I like about my religion: no gatekeepers. Plus, lox and bagels.
I like that Shabbat is Saturday..every Saturday, not arbitrarily moved to another day of the week because these folks had a better party to go.
Me, too, AyaLou. The blessing-of-the-bread ceremony on Friday night is short, sweet, and very soothing. Makes a nice entry into the weekend.
Agreed. G'mar chatima tovah!
So my understanding...Protestants go directly to God. We believe in a triune God, so yes, we need to accept that Christ was the fulfillment of Scripture (OT Scripture). Jews believe the Messiah/Savior/Son has not yet come. So not sure if they also would pray to the Messiah when that occurs in their faith...
Catholics, too, go to God though also through a priest for confession as did Jews in the OT when they could not enter the most holy of holies in the temple as individuals. They needed priests to present sacrifices for them/approach YHWH for them. Maybe I’m missing something else you’re saying? I love lox and bagels, too!
I’m Catholic. We do not “go to God through a priest”. The sacrament of Confession is for the forgiveness of sins, not some telephone line you have to use or God won’t hear you. You can pray to God whenever and wherever you want to, and God hears you each and every time. In the sacrament of Confession what you get is a sort of guarantee that you’ve been forgiven, but that doesn’t make it the only way God can forgive you. God can do anything, so He can forgive you if you are sincerely sorry and ask for forgiveness. Under the teachings of the Catholic Church going to Confession guarantees forgiveness (Jesus said so in the Bible, they didn’t just invent it) and an infusion of Grace into your soul. My personal take on the sacrament is that it is early psychotherapy. I put it into the same category as Jewish and Muslim dietary laws, ie, they benefit people in ways that don’t yet exist at the time they started. The dietary laws kept people from getting sick at a time when people didn’t know how to process pigs and hogs so that their meat wasn’t infested with parasites. Confession gives humans the kind of solace that only comes from telling another human your worst transgressions out loud and how sorry you really are and then having that other human tell you that s/he forgives you. Early psychotherapy. You gotta get it out or else it will eat away at you. The best way to get it out is tell another person, face-to-face, out loud. At some level Jesus and the early Founders knew this and just made it a sacrament. I can tell you there is no better solace than that which comes from Confession. I’ve been in therapy and I’ve gone to Confession. Confession works and it’s free.
My apologies that my wording did not read well for you. My point was to let the person know that as Christians (Protestant and Catholic) we don’t have a gatekeeper for God, we have a Savior who IS God and we have sacraments like Catholic confession and communion to connect us with God in different ways. Protestants do not use priests for confession though we may go to our pastors for confession and guidance. I’m a therapist and understand wholly the power of going to others for help. God is still the very best resource.
Such a lovely comment. I'm pretty sure Jesus also said not to be judgmental of others - I see that very much as God's right. And He's certainly been patient with me on my own journey and was there for me when I least deserved it.
That is lovely. While I am strongly opinionated they are just me and I take great comfort in the belief that vengeance is not mine. Ultimately.
Are people hating on the article itself (or TFP for publishing it), or just making fun of the subjects of the article? Those aren't quite the same thing.
The hate is because it is in California.
That assertion would be more convincing if these events weren’t also held in other places, like Mexico City (as the article states).
Nah. No one on this board has referenced/commented re: Mexico. It's been all California, self-centered liberals, etc.
My assertion is 100% accurate.
That's called "nutpicking" and it doesn't prove anything. Some minority of people mentioned California, the vast majority didn't, and you're taking that minority and calling it representative of everyone. The reason no one referenced/commented on Mexico is because the vast majority of comments are unrelated to your claim
No. The reason that no one is referencing Mexico and the other locations, as was mentioned in the article, is because that would detract from the Free Press discussion board ethos of bashing California, liberals, liberal enclaves, liberal products, etc.
The other commentor brought up that the article mentioned Mexico in an attempt to claim commentors were also focusing on that. But they were wrong. I am right.
Lol, did you lose track of who you're talking too? As a third commenter, I agree with the two other commenters and think you're wrong.
If I have an issue with this it is that it seems very narrow. If this were a thing popping up in cities across the country, I would find it more relevant. But this seems so specific, that I can't really relate to it. More like a local news story. But I don't think it shouldn't exist as an article. Just not one I felt was very interesting or useful.
These are the kinds of people that our youth are watching online and being influenced by. Trends that are shaping culture matter, regardless of how ridiculous we think they are.
I am so grateful to live in Alabama. I eat barbecue, watch college football, watch the Atlanta Braves, drink beer, go to church, go the the lake, hang out with wife and kids at the pool, go to a concert every now and then. I will take the bumpkin life any day of the week.
Amen to that!
These people will never find what they are looking for no matter how many gurus they follow
"A religion that does not require the sacrifice of all things, never has power sufficient to produce the faith necessary unto life and salvation."
I disagree. Some of them (maybe a lot) will find what they are looking for, at least temporarily, which is a consensual fling with fame until growing bored and moving on to the next playground of wealthy phoniness. The veneer of spirituality is meant to hide their narcissism and hedonism. Like every new age cult, reports of scandalous behavior within the group are not far off. And soon after that the People magazine stories of victims struggling to break free from the “cult”.
Rich secular anglos flirting with Jewish mysticism, eastern religions, climate worship, big tech, drugs, weird desert festivals...They need to listen to a little Lynyrd Skynyrd and spend some time in a black Baptist church
Hallelujah. I suggest starting with Simple Man. I have not been in such a church since I was a kid but the experience informed me and sticks with me to this day.
I recommend Tony Evans. You can stream him from YouTube.
Yep
It is just lipstick on the pig then. That was my feeling as well.
Agreed.
Also, I have a strange feeling Secular Sabbath may devolve into a sex cult....
I hardly made it through the first two paragraphs. What a bunch of self-absorbed spoiled brats.
Also arrogant ! Who brings a subway sandwich (cheese and bologna?!) to their kosher grandparents house? What an up your nose gesture.
But how offended would this crowd be by a person who would bring a Big Mac to a vegan's house?
Such a disgrace and so self absorbed JoAnne
Agree! Arriving at anyone’s house without food or drink to share is rude and then make it a food that is offensive….unbelievable! May her spiritual guide be Miss Manners!
Please God JoAnne I wish her some quick wisdom on route to some decent respect xx
I have worked with churches over the past year that are slowly dying. The people who attend do so more out of a force of habit than out of any conviction. The only new people attending are people leaving other places, but no one is being brought to any "conversion." This article was fascinating as it shows the primary drivers:
People are very self-absorbed in their pursuit of meaning. I can be a good person where I want, doing what I wish while setting the parameters for me.
Most are single with little responsibilities to others.
They have money and can take care of themselves. Who needs anyone or, god forbid, responsible for anyone?
There are no intellectual materials that read, inspire, or change behaviors.
We live in a world where it's my religion, and as more people under 40 only love and care about me, the churches I work with will slowly die, and belief as we know it will be a minority passion. Thanks for having an article that shows the evolution or devolution of our culture.
You find no correlation between the disappearing of standards and the disappearing of the congregants?
That is so on point. I am working a mainline denominaton and you can be whatever you want to be, who are they to judge especially if you are part of a rainbow community.
Yes. I'm an inspector; I get a limited look-in to all manner of churches. Lotta rainbowism with the occasional free food -- and the whole thing crumbling.
I'm fascinated by growth I see in more orthodox/trad spaces as well as the interest in Stoicism. People are looking for more depth.
Churches have gone all-in on the short game, not realizing that they're essentially prioritizing planting their seeds on shallow ground.
If you make the church experience as convenient as possible, to the point where it's essentially entertainment with free coffee and doesn't require anything of the congregants, you'll get more people, at least initially.
From there, some churches never go any deeper. In those cases congregants might stick around, but they just as easily might realize that both the coffee and music is better outside of church than inside.
Alternately, if a church does lure people in with coffee and entertainment but eventually starts providing the meat of the Word, a lot of people who were essentially tricked to come to church will balk and leave.
With more orthodox/traditional churches there's a reputation, so those who seek it already know that it is to be taken seriously. So there's a selection bias there.
More fundamentally, though, a church that doesn't demand change from you soon makes itself obsolete, because if you don't need to change anything about yourself to follow God, then what makes church necessary?
100% .. at least in Catholicism, there is a very strong movement pushing back against the "dumb-ing down of the faith." That is where the energy is. It's amazing how many younng families are attending the Latin Mass and digging into Thomas Aquinas. The social justice wing of the church has been a disaster.
Not so sure about that last paragraph.. I don't think that I want to meet one who doesn't need to change anything.
Orthodox/trad spaces, if I understand the usage, yes. For most of the rest, the Gods of the Copybook Headings (ref: Kipling) will inevitably return.
100%.. but Kipling's 'gods' are not enduring. They all go the way of Hillsong eventually.
Many churches seem to have fallen to the idea that they want to recruit people in as great a number as possible. That's been the mainline Evangelical position, as well as a number of other "successful" religions such as Latter-Day Saints (Mormon). However, trying to grow the faith as much as possible inevitably leads to molding the faith around trends and the prevailing secular culture. Even if that was once a valuable trait, going to a church for 90 minutes is *never* going to be as stimulating as 20 minutes of TikTok videos, a TED talk, and some pornography. So why try to compete?
Therefore, there's something to be said for self-segregation and selecting to be part of a certain religion because its values align with yours. Those who wish to live a more traditional lifestyle can choose to do so, and it will attract others who have similar values.
I think religion is in transition. I think too many churches have introduced the concepts of their own destruction. The result of which is it is some of the churches which are dying not belief in God.
Sad but true. Plus a lot of larger churches cannot stop compromising their teachings to look woke.
I wonder how many times I just rolled my eyes...
Of course it "borrows from Eastern traditions" (ask anyone there to give one concrete example of a tradition and its influence).
Of course they call Western religion dogma (tell anyone there you disagree that transgender women are real women).
Of course the whole thing is about "celebrating life" (only each their own).
The giant clue was “Esalen”. People never tire of snake oil. It’s so much easier to lie around in a sauna and take a sound bath than it would be to “do the work” on oneself and in one’s community.
And it’s fascinating how “Eastern religions” are legitimized despite the obvious discriminatory nature of the caste system, by which one’s birth into certain families condemns you to a life of penury and prejudice (based on Hinduism’s ideas of karma and reincarnation). But that’s not “dogma”, no...
They probably mention chakras and chant Ohm. That's possibly as deep as it goes.
What's the odds on some sort of Bohemian Grove crazed sex scandal breaking out at these places? I’ll give it about 25/1.
Oh, and can someone point out the secret room where the Harvey Weinstein statue is? I wanna get a selfie.
I’m looking forward to the Netflix docuseries about it. Seems inevitable.
Check out "The Secrets of Hillsong."
Maybe they'll wind up secretly moving their priests to different parishes and one day have to pay millions in lawsuits?
Or pull a Hillsong?
“What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course it is the cross.” -Flannery O’Connor
The very traditional Catholic Church I attend is packed for five Masses each Sunday. It’s filled with young single people, young families, and an ever-expanding crop of children. God is right there, on the altar, in the tabernacle, in the hearts of parishioners. Gloria Patri, et Filio, et Spiritui Sancto, sicut erat in principio, et nunc, et semper, et in saecula saeculorum. Amen.
My little Orthodox parish is bursting at the seams, too, and filled with the same types. It’s great to see and be around!
But the pope in Rome hates it!
This is very encouraging! We recently switched to a vibrant parish like this, but almost any listen to Bishop Barron or Fr Mike Schmitz and you’ll hear them grieve over the “nones” and how many are leaving The Church.
The Eternal Truths of the Faith and the Ancient Traditions draw the young like magnets, but sadly, many parishes only offer watered-down versions of the Faith, and no one is drawn to that.
"A religion that does not require the sacrifice of all things, never has power sufficient to produce the faith necessary unto life and salvation."
Not Catholic but I love Father Mike.
Who are Bishop Barron and Fr Mike Schmitz?
Father Mike is a very popular Catholic priest on Youtube and works at the University of Minnesota. He did an awesome Bible in a Year podcast. Also does small segments talking about faith on his channel. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLeXS0cAkuTPpJ6j3eH59WudJhJ4q1tpwH
And this year is doing Catholic Catechism in a Year! Both it and Bible in a Year are EXCELLENT.
Bishop Robert Barron, now of the diocese of Winona-Rochester also in MN (but was in San Fran. before that) is a Catholic treasure. Started Word on Fire Ministry and has super intellectually- and philosophically- rigorous teaching and resources. Please check him out both on YouTube and at WordonFire. Org
You are blessed.
Bit of a silly subject for the Free Press.
Well. . . It’s not “silly” when you realize these people are actually influencing young people and setting the tone for a large part of our culture.
Yes, but there is clearly a yearning for something spiritual. Pity it is for something that makes no intellectual or real spiritual demands. The optimist in me wonders whether some of these people may, eventually, gravitate to something with actual substance.
I thought I hated Communists…I may hate these people even more.
I can definitely give that an Amen. 🤣🤣🤣
🤯
An infinitesimal sample of the top 1% does not "the young" make.
It's amazing how few people really understand Christianity and dismiss or even disparage it when it's actually already everything they say they want and seek.
And I didn't either for most of my life so I get it. I grew up Protestant, was then agnostic, then atheist. Then I had a spiritual experience when I was dying in a hospital and knew God, the One, was real, that we are indeed all connected as One, and that God is what he said he was in the Christian and Judaic traditions: The I Am. Love. And you can be with that Love at any time simply by transcending/subjugating ego (fear, selfishness, anger, hatred) and choosing it. That actually gets you most of the new age and the eastern traditions more or less. And yes, He's all around us and with us all the time.
But later I had another experience that showed me that Jesus is also real, the knowable form of God, and that He is in fact the Way - both the gateway for a return to Oneness/Love and "the Way" as in the Tao for how to be. His whole message in his day on earth was to set aside rules and dogma for the only two that really matter, which are actually the same thing - choose Love over ego. "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law..." He asks us to choose Love over ego on our own, but what about when we don't / the past? He graces us where we can't or didn't through His own sacrifice and forgiveness of our foibles, and in so doing also shows us how to be loving to others through forgiveness. That's what communion (reconciliation) is all about - literally and physically returning to the state of Oneness that is Love.
I ultimately eventually chose Catholicism because despite its human failings, in its purest form it's the only teaching that matched what I was independently shown and experienced. It honors free will to choose Love (this is also true of a couple of Protestant sects), encourages you to do that through word, thought and deed, and recognizes reconciliation for what it is - return to connection in Love as Love to All That Is: God/all creation/each other. It also sees people the way I know from person experience that God sees us - as profoundly loved (not as Luther's dung heaps). Also the rules they do set out are really about living into love - that does take some self control and some limitations - it's not anything goes, which might be a damper on the young people's idea of a good time.
There are many ways of knowing but for the seekers, it's actually pretty simple. Any choice of Love is choosing Love/Oneness/God... the Christian Way, Jesus, just helps us live into Love and to return to Love/Oneness/God fully.
Peace and love to all people.
I think He speaks directly to all of us. Listening or not is Free Will.
Beautiful thought!
funny I was declared dead twice , never saw god or any of it's representatives . Guess the Gods just ignored me not important enough
Can I be honest? I think maybe it's the remedial souls that have to have the intervention experiences. I always figured I must have just been deemed sufficiently close to spiritually hopeless. :) But I did learn we're all really really loved. And that I always was, all of us were, long before any of that happened.