In a normal time, our leaders would tell us what it was all for. We don’t live in that time. So it's left to us to remember why we served in Afghanistan.
The real betrayal was perpetrated by generals like McMaster that continually asked for six more months. We just need six more months. 20 years. We were there for twenty years standing up an army that was never every a fighting force. This fact was known at the highest levels.
Our failure was thinking we could have democratized a country that didn’t care about democracy. And then the military and our civilian leadership lies to Americans- just need a little more time.
This is t about Trump surrendering. It’s about hubris and military incompetence. After 20 years, 15 to 16 of which were dedicated to training this Afghan army, they completely collapse in 11 days. That’s the story. Why? Just read WaPos 2019 Afghan Papers. That’s why.
I was there in 05 and 12. At no time in either of those deployments was there a capable Afghan army. We all knew it. McMaster knew it. It’s disgusting that anyone in leadership would say that we failed because we didn’t stay longer. What we’re witnessing now was and is inevitable. We could be there for 100 years and this would still happen after we left.
We don’t owe them anything. I had soldiers die there while we trained them, funded them, built schools and fostered democratic systems. They failed themselves. Proof - if they have a shit they’d be fighting the Taliban, not running. Pretty clear example of their level of caring for their country. And again and again there’s the shouts from people hanging off planes, “don’t go!!” Or “take me with you!” That’s not what people say when their country is collapsing, without a fight.
20 years.
To my fellow vets. This has nothing to do with your valor. We did our job. Our leaders failed us by using us to do the impossible. But we did our jobs and we did them well. Their failure isn’t ours. Our lesson is the same lesson from Vietnam. America should not be running around the world, wasting money and sacrificing good men and women on impossible efforts - democratization.
There’s no doubt the invasion of Afghanistan was warranted. No doubt. But once the Taliban had a taste and were routed, we should have left. It should have remained a punitive “raid.” How it came off the rails like it did is something for the ages but I sense it’s very similar to the absurd issues that kept us in Vietnam - prestige. The myth of prestige.
I'm an Army veteran and served in varying capacities from 1974 (the end of the Vietnam War until 1990 (Desert Storm). I was physician for the last 10 years of active service and cared for many Vietnam veterans. Many of those veterans knew that Vietnam was a screwed up war and knew as soon as we left the NVA would take over the country. Veterans felt saddness for what they saw as a waste of life, both of their comrades and Vietnamese they knew and worked with. The Vietnam War was less than 50 years ago. Our current president was an adult and saw all of this. I do not understand how he could have overseen what has transpired in Afghanistan and not make statements that help all the current veterans work through their pain about what has happened! He even had a son that served there, so he dishonors his own blood! Instead, what we see is the typical political blame game and once again ignoring the very people who protect you. I am angry! Someone needs to address our current and veteran soldiers and try to ease their pain (it may be an impossible task). I don't hold out hope that it will happen and most of our veterans will suffer in silence as they did 47 years ago. If you know a veteran, don't just thank them for their service, ask them how they are doing and let them know you truly care about someone who would risk their life for YOU!!! I write this with tears in my eyes for I have seen their suffering!
I listen to McMaster on the Goodfellows Conversations. I do not find him a convincing intellect when measured by the standards set by his colleagues there, John Cochrane and Niall Ferguson. I have been surprised by the memes he repeats as real arguments. As these conversations move on in any number of episodes, McMaster shrinks and the others just move ahead without him. I will listen to your conversation because it's you. Thanks for all you are doing to push back at illiberalism.
Interesting that Gen. McMasters tries to lay the blame for this disaster at the feet of Mike Pompey. The Biden administration has had seven months to address the Taliban negotiations but neglected to do so. Lot’s of blame to go around in this morass. Share it rationally.
It is interesting to see a serviceman advocate for what is called the "forever war" position, that we should be doing some sort of "peacekeeping" in Afghanistan for which he and his friends would sign up "over and over again". I think it's safe to say this is a minority viewpoint particularly among servicemen. If we are going to use troops to defend the rights of women and girls in other countries there are lots of other countries we should pick first. Of course such a mission is absurd on its face. Afghanistan was nothing more than a 20 year money laundering operation that put $600bn of taxpayer money into the hands of our military-industrial complex. All the "women and girls" stuff was trotted out every few years to keep the grift going. Perhaps our young serviceman is not yet cynical enough.
There was a lot of corruption and dishonesty among politicians and Generals on both sides. This should have been a six month operation. Get in, kill as many bad guys as possible, get out. Somehow this morphed into a ludicrous nation building, culture changing operation that was doomed to fail
“I broke down. I went into the shower and sobbed.” That says everything. How many of us have done that too? When the sorrow is almost too much to bear and we can’t find any sense of it all. Heartbreaking.
You did a great job, Bari, in this interview. McMaster did not offer you much heavy thinking. He basically shifted his feet when you asked the questions that simply lie on the surface of our rage at this inanity. When it came to the military's culpability in this chaos he would giggle and not refute you. That's the best he had. The canard that Trump psychologically clouded Milley's judgment so that he could not see how bad things were was beyond insane. And his assertion that bringing Afghanis to America was the best way to defeat the Taliban was illusionary. Is this man really military? His answers were not direct, clear, and avoided anything approaching taking responsibility for atmospheres he helped create. A most disappointing moment. But you still managed to express the soul that is in our questions, outrage at incompetence, blame shifting, and intellectual laziness. Thank you for staying close to the American soul.
"When will there be justice in Athens? There will be justice in Athens when those who are not injured are as outraged as those who are." ~ Thucydides
The casualties we require are for those in command, field officers and leading politicians, who put our dead in harm's way--and escaped themselves. It is they who deserve loss of benefits, banishment from decent company, and everlasting shame. Gen. McMaster among them.
McMaster defends the US flying the gay pride flag in Afghanistan because this is really who the Afghani’s were in the 1970s. We weren’t taunting them but being true to them. What???? Bari thankfully expressed skepticism.
McMaster’s solution? Full on immigration of Afghani’s to America so they can save Afghanistan from here. This is not a serious thinker. He is what is wrong with the military. Bari kept trying to put him on the hook. He stumbled and stuttered. He simply would not admit our military leaders are not serious people, even as McMaster is not.
Bari - Hoping that you'll consider publishing a response to Rafia Zakaria's truly retrograde, bigoted commentary which is getting quite a bit of coverage on NPR and in other circles. Its really dangerous and needs urgent attention. Thanks for your consideration.
The real betrayal was perpetrated by generals like McMaster that continually asked for six more months. We just need six more months. 20 years. We were there for twenty years standing up an army that was never every a fighting force. This fact was known at the highest levels.
Our failure was thinking we could have democratized a country that didn’t care about democracy. And then the military and our civilian leadership lies to Americans- just need a little more time.
This is t about Trump surrendering. It’s about hubris and military incompetence. After 20 years, 15 to 16 of which were dedicated to training this Afghan army, they completely collapse in 11 days. That’s the story. Why? Just read WaPos 2019 Afghan Papers. That’s why.
I was there in 05 and 12. At no time in either of those deployments was there a capable Afghan army. We all knew it. McMaster knew it. It’s disgusting that anyone in leadership would say that we failed because we didn’t stay longer. What we’re witnessing now was and is inevitable. We could be there for 100 years and this would still happen after we left.
We don’t owe them anything. I had soldiers die there while we trained them, funded them, built schools and fostered democratic systems. They failed themselves. Proof - if they have a shit they’d be fighting the Taliban, not running. Pretty clear example of their level of caring for their country. And again and again there’s the shouts from people hanging off planes, “don’t go!!” Or “take me with you!” That’s not what people say when their country is collapsing, without a fight.
20 years.
To my fellow vets. This has nothing to do with your valor. We did our job. Our leaders failed us by using us to do the impossible. But we did our jobs and we did them well. Their failure isn’t ours. Our lesson is the same lesson from Vietnam. America should not be running around the world, wasting money and sacrificing good men and women on impossible efforts - democratization.
There’s no doubt the invasion of Afghanistan was warranted. No doubt. But once the Taliban had a taste and were routed, we should have left. It should have remained a punitive “raid.” How it came off the rails like it did is something for the ages but I sense it’s very similar to the absurd issues that kept us in Vietnam - prestige. The myth of prestige.
I'm an Army veteran and served in varying capacities from 1974 (the end of the Vietnam War until 1990 (Desert Storm). I was physician for the last 10 years of active service and cared for many Vietnam veterans. Many of those veterans knew that Vietnam was a screwed up war and knew as soon as we left the NVA would take over the country. Veterans felt saddness for what they saw as a waste of life, both of their comrades and Vietnamese they knew and worked with. The Vietnam War was less than 50 years ago. Our current president was an adult and saw all of this. I do not understand how he could have overseen what has transpired in Afghanistan and not make statements that help all the current veterans work through their pain about what has happened! He even had a son that served there, so he dishonors his own blood! Instead, what we see is the typical political blame game and once again ignoring the very people who protect you. I am angry! Someone needs to address our current and veteran soldiers and try to ease their pain (it may be an impossible task). I don't hold out hope that it will happen and most of our veterans will suffer in silence as they did 47 years ago. If you know a veteran, don't just thank them for their service, ask them how they are doing and let them know you truly care about someone who would risk their life for YOU!!! I write this with tears in my eyes for I have seen their suffering!
I listen to McMaster on the Goodfellows Conversations. I do not find him a convincing intellect when measured by the standards set by his colleagues there, John Cochrane and Niall Ferguson. I have been surprised by the memes he repeats as real arguments. As these conversations move on in any number of episodes, McMaster shrinks and the others just move ahead without him. I will listen to your conversation because it's you. Thanks for all you are doing to push back at illiberalism.
McMaster is just like Joey Eggplant. Blaming others. What was McMasters role as a general eh? What advice did he give.
One thinks that the military leadership is always pure as the driven snow. Well really they are uber political and as slimy as any other politician.
Interesting that Gen. McMasters tries to lay the blame for this disaster at the feet of Mike Pompey. The Biden administration has had seven months to address the Taliban negotiations but neglected to do so. Lot’s of blame to go around in this morass. Share it rationally.
It is interesting to see a serviceman advocate for what is called the "forever war" position, that we should be doing some sort of "peacekeeping" in Afghanistan for which he and his friends would sign up "over and over again". I think it's safe to say this is a minority viewpoint particularly among servicemen. If we are going to use troops to defend the rights of women and girls in other countries there are lots of other countries we should pick first. Of course such a mission is absurd on its face. Afghanistan was nothing more than a 20 year money laundering operation that put $600bn of taxpayer money into the hands of our military-industrial complex. All the "women and girls" stuff was trotted out every few years to keep the grift going. Perhaps our young serviceman is not yet cynical enough.
Thanks for sharing the voice of a real soldier. I thank him for his service, and for the sacrifices of his buddies in uniform.
McMaster and all the generals, however, should SHUT THE FUCK UP.
Liars. All liars.
There was a lot of corruption and dishonesty among politicians and Generals on both sides. This should have been a six month operation. Get in, kill as many bad guys as possible, get out. Somehow this morphed into a ludicrous nation building, culture changing operation that was doomed to fail
“I broke down. I went into the shower and sobbed.” That says everything. How many of us have done that too? When the sorrow is almost too much to bear and we can’t find any sense of it all. Heartbreaking.
Thank you for defending freedom Jordan. We are proud of you and proud of the work you have done.
You did a great job, Bari, in this interview. McMaster did not offer you much heavy thinking. He basically shifted his feet when you asked the questions that simply lie on the surface of our rage at this inanity. When it came to the military's culpability in this chaos he would giggle and not refute you. That's the best he had. The canard that Trump psychologically clouded Milley's judgment so that he could not see how bad things were was beyond insane. And his assertion that bringing Afghanis to America was the best way to defeat the Taliban was illusionary. Is this man really military? His answers were not direct, clear, and avoided anything approaching taking responsibility for atmospheres he helped create. A most disappointing moment. But you still managed to express the soul that is in our questions, outrage at incompetence, blame shifting, and intellectual laziness. Thank you for staying close to the American soul.
"When will there be justice in Athens? There will be justice in Athens when those who are not injured are as outraged as those who are." ~ Thucydides
The casualties we require are for those in command, field officers and leading politicians, who put our dead in harm's way--and escaped themselves. It is they who deserve loss of benefits, banishment from decent company, and everlasting shame. Gen. McMaster among them.
McMaster defends the US flying the gay pride flag in Afghanistan because this is really who the Afghani’s were in the 1970s. We weren’t taunting them but being true to them. What???? Bari thankfully expressed skepticism.
Why is McMaster giggling so much in this interview? Beneath the soberness of the topic.
McMaster’s solution? Full on immigration of Afghani’s to America so they can save Afghanistan from here. This is not a serious thinker. He is what is wrong with the military. Bari kept trying to put him on the hook. He stumbled and stuttered. He simply would not admit our military leaders are not serious people, even as McMaster is not.
Bari - Hoping that you'll consider publishing a response to Rafia Zakaria's truly retrograde, bigoted commentary which is getting quite a bit of coverage on NPR and in other circles. Its really dangerous and needs urgent attention. Thanks for your consideration.